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Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

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jhwieser
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#11 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:08 pm

I agree with the general consensus here - I was really hoping for a Bloodlord 2.0. I'd like it to be better for small scale where 2H tanks actually have a role. Toughness is really not a critical stat for this.

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Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#12 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:10 pm

Ekundu01 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:01 pm
I don't get why people are hating on toughness on a tank set. Offensive or defensive you still want some decent toughness.

Even stacking a ton of offensive stats you don't get much return from it. And if you are planning on reaching real mdps str/ws/crit numbers you will be mixing sets and not going full 8 piece sov.

If you are playing a 2hand tank and running around under 500 toughness you might as well play a mdps and not a tank because what is the point in playing a 2hand tank if you are going to have the survival of a mdps and the moment you guard someone you melt faster then the person you are guarding. Toughness may not help with guard damage but you are still going to take damage from aoe.

Toughness may not be as good as it used to be but you shouldn't neglect it. You are a tank first and a dps second. Tanks can not be true mdps without sacrificing too much and making yourself more squishy then a mdps and still not hitting as hard. Toughness is the only thing that will help you survive vs armor pen/casters (since you don't have a shield and you can't parry casters).

I run minimum 700-800 toughness on my tank for rvr SnB or 2hand so sov sets having high toughness is a stat i like to see.
Not for small scale PvP. Tanks at the highest level of premade 6v6 do not stack toughness. I run 230 toughness unbuffed on BO when we play against the hardest 6v6 order teams on the server and it does not affect my survivability whatsoever. Small scale survivability is all about parry, armor, wounds and low chance to be crit. Also, the goal is not to reach MDPS level of str/ws/crit, the goal is to be able to bring enough damage to help your DPS kill targets while still being able to take a huge amount of pressure (both from guard dmg and focus dmg) with somewhere around 75% parry, 4k+ armor, ~10k wounds and negative chance to be crit. It has nothing to do with being a full glass canon MDPS.

That being said, Warlord suffers from the same problem as the offensive Sovereign which is it's a mix of offense and defense and serves no real purpose (maybe it's decent for large scale oRvR with a 2h). They both have very offensive set bonuses but all the items have nothing but defensive stats on them. This is a mistake.

Since we have 3 new sets, 1 should be for defensive s/b large scale, 1 should be for 2h hybrid large scale and 1 should be designed specifically for 2h small scale. Sadly, of the 3 new sets that were added recently, none of them is good for small scale PvP, offensive Sov and Warlord overlap badly in their role (large scale offensive 2h hybrid) and we are left with no true small scale DPS set.

I think one of these 2 should be dedicated for the small scale PvP.

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Ekundu01
Posts: 185

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#13 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:46 pm

Babanim wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:10 pm
Not for small scale PvP. Tanks at the highest level of premade 6v6 do not stack toughness. I run 230 toughness unbuffed on BO when we play against the hardest 6v6 order teams on the server and it does not affect my survivability whatsoever. Small scale survivability is all about parry, armor, wounds and low chance to be crit. Also, the goal is not to reach MDPS level of str/ws/crit, the goal is to be able to bring enough damage to help your DPS kill targets while still being able to take a huge amount of pressure (both from guard dmg and focus dmg) with somewhere around 75% parry, 4k+ armor, ~10k wounds and negative chance to be crit. It has nothing to do with being a full glass canon MDPS.

That being said, Warlord suffers from the same problem as the offensive Sovereign which is it's a mix of offense and defense and serves no real purpose (maybe it's decent for large scale oRvR with a 2h). They both have very offensive set bonuses but all the items have nothing but defensive stats on them. This is a mistake.

Since we have 3 new sets, 1 should be for defensive s/b large scale, 1 should be for 2h hybrid large scale and 1 should be designed specifically for 2h small scale. Sadly, of the 3 new sets that were added recently, none of them is good for small scale PvP, offensive Sov and Warlord overlap badly in their role (large scale offensive 2h hybrid) and we are left with no true small scale DPS set.

I think one of these 2 should be dedicated for the small scale PvP.
Having that high of parry only helps you if you are the focus target or are taking splash melee aoe damage (in the case of destro if you are taking splash damage from a slayer your 75% parry is 0 while they have rampage up, also if your guarded target takes damage from that same rampage slayer you can't parry the guard damage). If you are stacking parry thinking you will parry more guard damage you won't it is capped at 25%. 4k armor is nice but most melee dps are bypassing at least 35-40% if not more. If you are running 2handed you have no block so you can't defend against magic unless you disrupt and you can't defend vs ranged unless you dodge.

The only thing toughness isn't going to help you against is Morale damage and guard damage. VS everything else it is the best possible stat to stack for survival.
Trismack - Black Sheep

Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#14 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:45 pm

We are all well aware of the existence of Rampage, don't worry. Thankfully it's easily removable and not everyone runs 2x slayers.

Parrying guard dmg is not capped at 25%, I don't know where you got that from.

We are also aware that MDPS bypass a good portion of the armor so that's why you want it as high as possible so you still have a decent amount left after penetration.

Anyway, toughness is definitely not the way to go about small scale tanking, ask any tank that plays premade 6v6 on a regular basis.

Goreth
Posts: 2

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#15 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:48 pm

For most tanks in small scale fights the general rule i think the majority of people have for building defensive is this.
reduced chance to be crit> parry> armor> wounds> resist/toughness

Generally that is what most people playing small scale value overall. There can be some swapping around of priority depending upon what tank you are on. Also what you might be trying to do in your group, or possibly how your group plays but generally that is a decent idea of what stats to prioritize on 2h tanks in small scale. The offensive sov/warlord sets have good bonuses on them, and are really strong even compared to bloodlord which is by far the premier small scale 2h tank set. The problem with off sov and warlord though is the individual gear pieces are so weak with their stat distribution. Offensive sovereign for tanks gives 2% parry Warlord gives 4%, now compare that to bloodlord which gives 4% on gear pieces and a 5% bonus and a 10% parry proc. If sov is supposed to be the best tank set in game for ORVR/small scale depending upon which set you are wearing then the stats are going to require some tinkering. A major turn off from wearing sov for me is the super high toughness that is present on the set on most pieces of gear off sov has more toughness than str/wounds/init/wskill. I understand the need to have dump stats on a set so its not too strong but currently sov just seems to be too weak and you give up too much to run a full set of sov/warlord stat wise even with very good 2-5 piece bonuses.
Traale and all his brothers

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Ekundu01
Posts: 185

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#16 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:49 pm

Babanim wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:45 pm
We are all well aware of the existence of Rampage, don't worry. Thankfully it's easily removable and not everyone runs 2x slayers.

Parrying guard dmg is not capped at 25%, I don't know where you got that from.

We are also aware that MDPS bypass a good portion of the armor so that's why you want it as high as possible so you still have a decent amount left after penetration.

Anyway, toughness is definitely not the way to go about small scale tanking, ask any tank that plays premade 6v6 on a regular basis.
I got that idea from this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31038

More specificly this post
(Also for Hogun:
There is calculation between your WS and target's Strength. WS would really give you an advantage in parrying only when your WS will be muuuuch higher than targets strength and it can be like this mostly in cases of DPS classes which stack WS therefore they will most likely have more of it than say any 2h tank. So it does not effect 2h tanks mostly because their strength almost always is lower than DPS's weapon skills so they does not benefit from it really (for example, if you have a situation of 1050 strength vs 1050 WS, your parry will be 7.5%), and again the only one who would really benefit from WS is a DPS against a tank: dps parry > tank parry based on weapon skills basically.
But if we talk about WS and Guard, then:
4 WS gives you 25% parry which is hardcapped to 25% for the sake of guard. Everyone has more than 4 WS so everyone has the 25% parry bonus for guard and just so it's over abundantly clear, this applies for both SnB and 2H. so it doesn't matter weather you have 4 WS or 600 WS in case of guard. You will always have that 25% as long as you have 4 WS.
So, your WS don't really help with guarding since again you need just 4 WS.
Reason behind this is that guard damage is a 0 strength attack.
Hence also the hardcap, as otherwise you would automatically have 100% parry.


Parry and Block are separate checks which is huge. It means that when you have both Block and Parry, you have much better chances to defend against guard damage so any statements that Parry alone is a great tool against guard is not correct, Block and Parry do that job much better.)

Would need a dev to clear it up but what i get from that post is that parry/blocking guard damage is capped at 25% each because if they let your bonus parry and block work with that 25% you get from 4WS you would parry and block every guard damage attack because it is calculated as 0 str damage from yourself. But maybe i am wrong.
Trismack - Black Sheep

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Mordecaieth
Posts: 54
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Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#17 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:16 pm

I tried to refrain from adding to this post but I couldn't resist.

Bloodlord - [3744 armor] (L)
[21 toughness](L)
[265 strength] (W)
[81 init] (W)
[115 wounds] (W)
[4% parry] (W)
[2% reduction crit]
[+1 melee crit]

Sov - [4260 armor] (W)
[227 toughness] (W)
[204 strength] (L)
[33 init] (L)
[106 wounds] (L)
[2% parry, 2% disrupt,2% dodge] (2% less parry but all around more balanced defenses)
[2% reduction crit] (TIE)
[4% reduced armor pen] (W)
[+4 morale p/s] (W) (on 2 different pieces)
[+6 action pt p/s] (W) (on 2 different pieces)
[+8 hit points p/s] (W) (Why...)


This is just my opinion on where the set could use a bit of tweaking.

1. 40-50 toughness taken out of the whopping 227 and add it to the initiative stat.
2. Remove AP bonuses due to tanks having built in AP regen. (Freeing up 2 stat slots. Replace with 2% melee crit & 2% reduction in being crit.)
3. Remove ONE of the Morale regen stats. (Freeing up one stat slot, create some synergy with that 4% reduced armor pen and add another +2% maybe?)
4. Remove the atrocious +8 hit points. (Replace with 2% Parry possibly? (Entirely unsure how +8hp/p4s converts into a stat or value.))
5. The strength rating is fine... I don't know if you 2handed tanks are doing your math but +100 strength adds a very small bonus to damage, the +15% melee damage is going to be much better.

I understand that you can't simply pick and choose what stats you want on which piece of gear and honestly I hope the sets stay the same until after much testing by players/devs. By demanding changes on a set that nobody has the full set of is a bit ludicrous - don't ya think?


On a side note I accidentally bought a piece of the tank SOV while compiling these numbers... :evil:

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kmark101
Posts: 249

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#18 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:35 pm

Let me add my 2 cent feedback to this discussion. First as general and second as my primary class (IB) point of view.

I thought that the 3 sets will be the following: 1 defensive set (for any game mode, if you need to be defensive you have only one set option), 1 offensive 2h (I think the Warlord set was aiming for this) and 1 offensive SnB (the most interesting build for every tank, it's like the next step of tank evolution).

I'm very very sad to see that a pve set is still superior in every possible segment, while devs kept telling that "don't worry, city sets will be the best in each game mode". They are far from it in their current form.

As for the IB, I can't help be notice a HUGE nerf again for this class as the armor values increased by 12%-16% overall for the new armor sets. As the class who has only physical damage type, it is crucial to have more WS or armor bypass on their sets. The other solution would be to change the armor debuff skill values (or maybe change it to % armor debuff to balance it with every set, don't need to be a genius to see this) of the class, cause currently you can't debuff under armor cap anymore with new sets using the IB specific skill. (This skill is from a distant past when armor values ere 30% less in average.)

Why are the armor values always increasing such big time, while resists or stat budgets only increasing by a tiny amount? It's extremely unfair for physical damage classes and every new gear set is just a new set of class nerf for them. Please consider this.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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anarchypark
Posts: 1440

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#19 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:03 pm

You wanna dps gear?
how about start from same armor value of dps?
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, BW3, WP7, WH4, IB4, SL5
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

blechkautz
Posts: 50

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#20 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:54 pm

Ekundu01 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:49 pm
Babanim wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:45 pm
We are all well aware of the existence of Rampage, don't worry. Thankfully it's easily removable and not everyone runs 2x slayers.

Parrying guard dmg is not capped at 25%, I don't know where you got that from.

We are also aware that MDPS bypass a good portion of the armor so that's why you want it as high as possible so you still have a decent amount left after penetration.

Anyway, toughness is definitely not the way to go about small scale tanking, ask any tank that plays premade 6v6 on a regular basis.
I got that idea from this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31038

More specificly this post
(Also for Hogun:
There is calculation between your WS and target's Strength. WS would really give you an advantage in parrying only when your WS will be muuuuch higher than targets strength and it can be like this mostly in cases of DPS classes which stack WS therefore they will most likely have more of it than say any 2h tank. So it does not effect 2h tanks mostly because their strength almost always is lower than DPS's weapon skills so they does not benefit from it really (for example, if you have a situation of 1050 strength vs 1050 WS, your parry will be 7.5%), and again the only one who would really benefit from WS is a DPS against a tank: dps parry > tank parry based on weapon skills basically.
But if we talk about WS and Guard, then:
4 WS gives you 25% parry which is hardcapped to 25% for the sake of guard. Everyone has more than 4 WS so everyone has the 25% parry bonus for guard and just so it's over abundantly clear, this applies for both SnB and 2H. so it doesn't matter weather you have 4 WS or 600 WS in case of guard. You will always have that 25% as long as you have 4 WS.
So, your WS don't really help with guarding since again you need just 4 WS.
Reason behind this is that guard damage is a 0 strength attack.
Hence also the hardcap, as otherwise you would automatically have 100% parry.


Parry and Block are separate checks which is huge. It means that when you have both Block and Parry, you have much better chances to defend against guard damage so any statements that Parry alone is a great tool against guard is not correct, Block and Parry do that job much better.)

Would need a dev to clear it up but what i get from that post is that parry/blocking guard damage is capped at 25% each because if they let your bonus parry and block work with that 25% you get from 4WS you would parry and block every guard damage attack because it is calculated as 0 str damage from yourself. But maybe i am wrong.
The amount of parry you get from Weaponskill is capped at 25%, overall the cap is 75%.

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