Mara Proposal

[Stophy22]

Then i suggest remove pounce and single target stun from Wl like mara dont have

I thought this is exclusivly about heal debuffs? About WL first thing that should be removed is the short sprint after pounce. makes no sense on a class with this mobility

It is about heal debuffs this is off topic

[adamthelc]

I don't get why you want to look at healdebuff in isolation. Balance wise you should look as how Mara performs in comparison to other destro dps (choppa, msh, mdok, we, dps shaman, rsh, dps zealot, Magus, sorc) and maybe dps potential of destro tanks.
If Mara underperforms in comparison (why? Against which dps?), he needs a buff. If Mara overperforms (why? Against which dps?) he needs a nerf.
What order classes have or have not doesn't matter at all, except you claim that the actual healdebuff for Mara result in a general realm-imbalance in favor of order (and even if this is the case, this doesn't necessitate a buff to Mara unless he is underperforming in comparison to the other destro dps).

If you constantly buff somewhat lacking underperforming elements of different classes, it will result in power creep and balance nightmare.

Balance wise I’m looking at heal debuffs.

The proposal isn’t about Mara damage, it’s not about Mara damage vs his faction vs other faction. That’s someone else’s proposal if you want.

The proposal is about heal debuffs and why Mara (and white lion) are the only (dps) classes without a 9-5pt ability heal debuff. Healdebuffs are huge in order to kill someone and they’re pretty big for any sort of organized 6 man group, whether it be roaming or sc. Seeing as mara has to sacrifice a tactic slot to get his heal debuff when he is a tactic heavy class and his viability is already lower than other mdps on Destro side since his amazing tools can be replaced or substituted by more viable classes I thought it would be fair to look at this as a way to bring a little bit of viability and life to a class that is a bit on the back burner.

I haven’t called Mara weak, or underpowered or anything of the sort.

I have called the Mara lacking compared to his other mdps both on his side and the other.

That is all I’m not here to balance marauder and fix the class viability. Just advocate for something that I see as unfair and explain why it should get the same treatments as other classes. Maybe it’ll help with balance and class viability and I tried to make fair proposals that were not one sided.

I don’t believe there is a realm imbalance and never stated such. I believe there is an imbalance for Mara as a dps role because he lacks something vital for a dps class thus making him undesirable. I don’t think what I’m proposing is so disgusting either since the way Mara has to work as a dps class. Stance dancing. Very specific spec. Having to get certain tools otherwise he actually has nothing important.

If I had hard facts about Mara underperforming as a dps and and his dmg is too low or anything of the sort I would of made a proposal about that. But in summary;

other classes get 9point ability healdebuffs, Mara doesn’t. Mara should be given 9-5point heal debuff and here is why.

Hopefully that explain it a little better.

It doesn´t. Not at all.
You said yourself how strong a 50% inc healdebuff is (I agree).

If base tainted claw is useless and the use of a tactic slot is a too big disadvantage (I would disagree with this), then propose a removal of tainted claw and a change of the 11pt tactic. Mara gets treatment of WL then... no heal debuff at all... Would be also "fairer" (to pick your argument), so one core mdps on each side has no inc-healdebuff (mara and wl).

So it would be "fairer" to have half of destro classes without any kind of HD and 5/6 order classes with some form of HD? A 50% incoming HD shouldn't really be seen as strong it should be seen as a given and a weakness if you don't have one. And Maruaders do.

People are confusing the problem here imo. It's not a faction balance issue or class balance issue. If it were changing the way a class gets its HD, that already has one, wouldnt change very much.

Its the only single target ability that is a 25% HD. If that was very significant how OP would the Chosen aura be?

There are other tactic based HDs, but none of those effect a single ability thats primary function was already to HD. So they have a core ability slot and tactic required to get a HD that is in line with every other inc HD.

The other option, which I think is a worse option, would be to remove the core HD from Tainted Claw. Then give it either more damage or some other effect that makes it worth using without the tactic.

White Lion is irrelevant to the issue, they are very different even though they have some mirrored abilities. Talking about balancing them, because of a bad design on the marauder is goofy.

[Stophy22]

So the Mara heal debuff sucks, I think that's been covered in this thread to death, it has a lot of issues and I'd personally love to see it changed. However, as many people have pointed out, you'd also have to balance it to accommodate for the change, and there shouldn't be just a "straight Mara buff". Here's what I would do personally if I were the devs:

1. Remove Tainted Claw as a baseline ability. Put Draining Swipes at baseline. Draining Swipes as a core ability is hardly "strong", and this is basically a nerf.

2. Put Thunderous Blows back as the 5 point Savagery ability like it should be and always was. This is a small buff, but it's to fix a nerf from 2015 when this server was in t2 and early wounds debuffs mattered. They don't. You can still keep the nerfed value, so it's still nerfed overall from where it was on live.

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

4. Completely remove the current heal debuff/drain life tactic. The drain life is garbage, the fact that the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot is garbage, it's just pure garbage. Throw this entire tactic into the garbage bin.

5. Give Mara's a new random 11pt tactic, really doesn't even matter what it does, as long as it is occasionally situationally useful.

These changes would achieve a variety of things:

1. The Mara heal debuff would be much harder to get, and objectively weaker as an ability (higher cooldown), but frees up the Marauder to not have to waste a tactic slot to do what other DPS can do without one.

2. Draining Swipes, which is savagery only abiity, would be core instead of the 25% tainted claw, which is argueably weaker early on. Later on it still removes a Mara who doesn't spec for 13 savagery to get any heal debuff, which is fair.

3. Thunderous Blows goes back to where it should be and allows for more Marauder spec diversity.

TLDR: Nerf the heal debuff cooldown, remove it as a core ability, put it as a 13 point savagery ability, increase the debuff to 50%, and remove the tactic.

In my opinion, the above changes would be relatively balanced. This is a give and take, and the Marauder needs to give up something to get something here. That being said, the current way in which the Marauder heal debuffs is totally stupid and sucks in comparison to every other class with a heal debuff in the game. It made a lot of sense at live when the Marauder healing debuff tactic boosted Tainted Claw to a 75% heal debuff (which was overpowered), but the change to the tactic to make it 50% with the horrible horrible worthless lifeleech was a terrible decision by Mythic. It was a stupid idea in 2009, and it's still a stupid idea in 2020.

I was hoping you’d chime in!

I do like your proposal, and I agree as it follows the same base-line if my proposal: give Mara an ability healdebuff not a tactic.

I’d prefer not to go 13 points when no one else has to but if thunderous blow is changed to 5 point I can make the trade. I very much agree that draining swipe should be base-line or core and tainted claws cool down increased to 10 seconds.

Thank you for the input

[Arbich]

If base tainted claw is useless and the use of a tactic slot is a too big disadvantage (I would disagree with this), then propose a removal of tainted claw and a change of the 11pt tactic. Mara gets treatment of WL then... no heal debuff at all... Would be also "fairer" (to pick your argument), so one core mdps on each side has no inc-healdebuff (mara and wl).

Alright mr. devils advocate I’ll take the bait.

Why should mara lose his heal debuff altogether to match white lion. How would this be fairer? Why does every dps get healdebuff except these two classes? What are they doing so exceptionally that warrants this change?

Sorry, I propose no change at all (maybe was misunderstanding). I read your point, but I don´t understand it.
You say mara has no inc-healdebuff like for example WE and this is some kind of unfair(?), but his "mirror" WL has no heal debuff at all?!
I dont agree to the premise that you can look at heal debuffs in isolation, but of you do there is one mdps on order without healdebuff and none on destro.
Why some classes get some buffs/debuffs and some other not, is cause this is a grouped based game. If all buffs/debuffs are equaly distribute (and some may be redundant) is another question, but in sum the mara is not in the short end about what debuffs/buffs he brings to a group.

[Arbich]

Balance wise I’m looking at heal debuffs.

The proposal isn’t about Mara damage, it’s not about Mara damage vs his faction vs other faction. That’s someone else’s proposal if you want.

The proposal is about heal debuffs and why Mara (and white lion) are the only (dps) classes without a 9-5pt ability heal debuff. Healdebuffs are huge in order to kill someone and they’re pretty big for any sort of organized 6 man group, whether it be roaming or sc. Seeing as mara has to sacrifice a tactic slot to get his heal debuff when he is a tactic heavy class and his viability is already lower than other mdps on Destro side since his amazing tools can be replaced or substituted by more viable classes I thought it would be fair to look at this as a way to bring a little bit of viability and life to a class that is a bit on the back burner.

I haven’t called Mara weak, or underpowered or anything of the sort.

I have called the Mara lacking compared to his other mdps both on his side and the other.

That is all I’m not here to balance marauder and fix the class viability. Just advocate for something that I see as unfair and explain why it should get the same treatments as other classes. Maybe it’ll help with balance and class viability and I tried to make fair proposals that were not one sided.

I don’t believe there is a realm imbalance and never stated such. I believe there is an imbalance for Mara as a dps role because he lacks something vital for a dps class thus making him undesirable. I don’t think what I’m proposing is so disgusting either since the way Mara has to work as a dps class. Stance dancing. Very specific spec. Having to get certain tools otherwise he actually has nothing important.

If I had hard facts about Mara underperforming as a dps and and his dmg is too low or anything of the sort I would of made a proposal about that. But in summary;

other classes get 9point ability healdebuffs, Mara doesn’t. Mara should be given 9-5point heal debuff and here is why.

Hopefully that explain it a little better.

It doesn´t. Not at all.
You said yourself how strong a 50% inc healdebuff is (I agree).

If base tainted claw is useless and the use of a tactic slot is a too big disadvantage (I would disagree with this), then propose a removal of tainted claw and a change of the 11pt tactic. Mara gets treatment of WL then... no heal debuff at all... Would be also "fairer" (to pick your argument), so one core mdps on each side has no inc-healdebuff (mara and wl).

So it would be "fairer" to have half of destro classes without any kind of HD and 5/6 order classes with some form of HD? A 50% incoming HD shouldn't really be seen as strong it should be seen as a given and a weakness if you don't have one. And Maruaders do.

People are confusing the problem here imo. It's not a faction balance issue or class balance issue. If it were changing the way a class gets its HD, that already has one, wouldnt change very much.

Its the only single target ability that is a 25% HD. If that was very significant how OP would the Chosen aura be?

There are other tactic based HDs, but none of those effect a single ability thats primary function was already to HD. So they have a core ability slot and tactic required to get a HD that is in line with every other inc HD.

The other option, which I think is a worse option, would be to remove the core HD from Tainted Claw. Then give it either more damage or some other effect that makes it worth using without the tactic.

White Lion is irrelevant to the issue, they are very different even though they have some mirrored abilities. Talking about balancing them, because of a bad design on the marauder is goofy.

I agree: White Lion is irrelevant, but so are the other classes. Your statement is contradictory. sorry.

[Stophy22]

Spoiler:

Alright mr. devils advocate I’ll take the bait.

Why should mara lose his heal debuff altogether to match white lion. How would this be fairer? Why does every dps get healdebuff except these two classes? What are they doing so exceptionally that warrants this change?

Sorry, I propose no change at all (maybe was misunderstanding). I read your point, but I don´t understand it.
You say mara has no inc-healdebuff like for example WE and this is some kind of unfair(?), but his "mirror" WL has no heal debuff at all?!
I dont agree to the premise that you can look at heal debuffs in isolation, but of you do there is one mdps on order without healdebuff and none on destro.
Why some classes get some buffs/debuffs and some other not, is cause this is a grouped based game. If all buffs/debuffs are equaly distribute (and some may be redundant) is another question, but in sum the mara is not in the short end about what debuffs/buffs he brings to a group.

In my proposal I offer to give white-lion a heal debuff... Why are you acting like I didn't?

"If all buffs/debuffs are equally distributed..." I've already touched on diversity. Heal debuffs should be viewed as tanks having access to KD. Every dps should have access to a HD, just as all tanks have access to a KD. I believe it to be as such, you can argue differently if you want, I've stated why I think that so but have yet to get a, "I disagree because..." (insert counter viewpoint here) I've only gotten, "I disagree because mara already has a HD and white lion doesnt." or "I disagree because mara has every other tool and shouldnt be given every tool..." And I've debunked or explained why both of those arguments are wrong or incorrect.

And lastly mara is on the short end of debuffs he brings to a group because he can easily be replaced by better options. (BG,WE) He is not so unique and I've stated why in my other comments, getting tired of repeating myself. View my previous comments to gather correct information.

Feel free to send me a personal message as well if you're just trying to understand and I'm not explaining it well enough, I'm always happy to educate or explain. Not trying to be pissy or rude.

(idk how to do quotes after I've already set up a reply)
but in response to, "I agree: White Lion is irrelevant, but so are the other classes. Your statement is contradictory. sorry."

White lion can be irrelevant because of how well he preforms currently. But White lion could also be relevant because he doesn't have the tool as well. White lion doesn't necessarily need the tool but that's a different topical-argument that I don't want to get into, and am trying to avoid because its different from my topic and many people have "strong feelings" about it.

[Foofmonger]

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

So, you're basically nerfing a class that is already sharing the bottom of the barrel with choppas in terms of 6v6 and making Brutality even less viable than it already is? In exchange maras get Draining Swipe (one of the worst abilities in the game) and a 5pts Thunderous Blow which is just barely stronger than a BG's Hastened Doom and a 10s cd Tainted Claw with no lifesteal.

This isn't trading something for something else, it's self-mutilation.

No not at all.

In 6v6, this gives the Mara an extra tactic. You are still gonna go with the 13/9 Sav/Brut spec, the same spec you go with today. So the trade is actually 5 second cooldown, and the life leech, for a tactic slot. Which is not "self-mutilation" it's actually a net positive for Marauders without being stupid overpowered. It also frees up specs options for the Mara as you can now actually dip into Savagery just for TB which frees up a lot of new specs. I also don't see how this is any way "making Brut less viable" either, as there are literally no changes to Brut and all it really does is actually let Brut Mara's get TB without having to go 13 points in Savagery, so it's actually a very small Brutality buff.

Also, your premise that Marauders are "bottom of the barrel" in 6v6 is just ridiculous. Marauders are one of the strongest 6v6 classes in the entire game....

So I disagree with your premise and your assessment.

[adamthelc]

It doesn´t. Not at all.
You said yourself how strong a 50% inc healdebuff is (I agree).

If base tainted claw is useless and the use of a tactic slot is a too big disadvantage (I would disagree with this), then propose a removal of tainted claw and a change of the 11pt tactic. Mara gets treatment of WL then... no heal debuff at all... Would be also "fairer" (to pick your argument), so one core mdps on each side has no inc-healdebuff (mara and wl).

So it would be "fairer" to have half of destro classes without any kind of HD and 5/6 order classes with some form of HD? A 50% incoming HD shouldn't really be seen as strong it should be seen as a given and a weakness if you don't have one. And Maruaders do.

People are confusing the problem here imo. It's not a faction balance issue or class balance issue. If it were changing the way a class gets its HD, that already has one, wouldnt change very much.

Its the only single target ability that is a 25% HD. If that was very significant how OP would the Chosen aura be?

There are other tactic based HDs, but none of those effect a single ability thats primary function was already to HD. So they have a core ability slot and tactic required to get a HD that is in line with every other inc HD.

The other option, which I think is a worse option, would be to remove the core HD from Tainted Claw. Then give it either more damage or some other effect that makes it worth using without the tactic.

White Lion is irrelevant to the issue, they are very different even though they have some mirrored abilities. Talking about balancing them, because of a bad design on the marauder is goofy.

I agree: White Lion is irrelevant, but so are the other classes. Your statement is contradictory. sorry.

No need to say sorry, you are wrong. There is no contradiction.

[Foofmonger]

so u whnat thunderous blow in mosntro stance/brut stance aswell? maby replace also crit damage in sav tree to heald debuff tactic so mosntro mara has crit damage and wounds debuff ( its dont require arms) and brut tree will be skipped by anyone.

Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.

[Foofmonger]

If anyone wants to even remotely consider making tainted claw into a specable ability then it should be 9 points like all other mdps specable inc hd

The notion that it should be 13 pts to spec is ludicrous

How so? The White Lion outgoing heal debuff is a 13 pt ability, and Tainted Claw already required a 11 point tactic to be useful. How many Marauder's spec the heal debuff and don't go grab Thunderous Blows at 13 points?

It's not ludicrous at all, in fact, this is how you balance. It makes much more sense for the heal debuff to be 13 then it does for thunderous blows to be at 13, which is nonsense.