[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[Sigimund]

Lack of utility must be a magus problem. In T4 my engi had plenty of group buffs but not many deathblows.

[Renork]

I can't comment for engies, but both classes could use some adjustments. The disarm could be reduced to 1.0 second cast time and the effect increased to 4 seconds. Seed of chaos could have its ending damage increased significantly or add an initiative/toughness debuff component once it "explodes". Etc...

[Karast]

The easiest fix to Havoc, if it is truly intended to be a sorc wannabe build, would be to give it a tactic which grants 50% bonus crit damage to all path of Havoc spells. Then you've got the 15% crit tactic... and one that increases crit damage, both of which are no where near as powerful as a sorc or a bright wizard running at full dhar/combustion.

The problem though? Heh... well, where does that leave the engineer? No, I'd argue that viewing havoc as a sorc wannabe build is wrong and that it should instead be tuned towards doing something that the sorc cannot do and the Magus does: Crowd control and loads of debuffs. (In before "Death is the best form of CC" )

I've got more thoughts on the matter so I'll write a proper response to your ideas later.

I agree with your sentiment. What does making magus into a second rate sorc really accomplish? Would you really bring a ST magus over a sorc if the magus had 50% more crit damage? It would help but a sorc would still do better damage with a better rotation / dots, and that is not just for ST, but for AoE as well.

[Renork]

The easiest fix to Havoc, if it is truly intended to be a sorc wannabe build, would be to give it a tactic which grants 50% bonus crit damage to all path of Havoc spells. Then you've got the 15% crit tactic... and one that increases crit damage, both of which are no where near as powerful as a sorc or a bright wizard running at full dhar/combustion.

The problem though? Heh... well, where does that leave the engineer? No, I'd argue that viewing havoc as a sorc wannabe build is wrong and that it should instead be tuned towards doing something that the sorc cannot do and the Magus does: Crowd control and loads of debuffs. (In before "Death is the best form of CC" )

I've got more thoughts on the matter so I'll write a proper response to your ideas later.

I agree with your sentiment. What does making magus into a second rate sorc really accomplish? Would you really bring a ST magus over a sorc if the magus had 50% more crit damage? It would help but a sorc would still do better damage with a better rotation / dots, and that is not just for ST, but for AoE as well.

Correct. A Sorcerer will provide better utility and synergy to a group than a magus. Grasping Darkness, Frozen Fury, Infernal Gift, VoD are just a few examples, plus their damage at 100 Dhar is still unmatchable. So the question is, why bring a magus?

[peterthepan3]

^ that.

If we compare the Magus to Sorc as a DD, then we're not gonna have a good time. However, the same can be said about most classes/archetypes when compared to an OP/overperforming class. Sorc itself needs some tinkering imo, as opposed to other classes being pushed up to the same OP level.

however i still hold that havoc magus/rifles engi ARE the st dps specs of both classes, and so any changes regarding them should pertain to single-target capabilities (be that dmg or buff). just my 2 c. now, time for pizza.

[Qaulthir]

I suppose that the only advantage that a pseudo-sorc would have is the lack of backlash, and there'd be no need to build Dhar in order to be at peak efficiency... that and the 20% damage buff granted by pets might result in some direct damage that is a little bit more impressive than what Havoc Magi currently have. Not that it'd solve much. If you want to play a sorc then you play a sorc.

I've always argued that the roles of the magus is suppression rather than annihilation, which is why I pitched the original ideas I had for Havoc. It'd be interesting if there was a way of making that work and then, perhaps, mirror some of that over to the engineer. My thoughts on that subject are in the first post I made in this thread, I've not much else to add to that at the moment.

Then we have the classification of the career itself: Defensive caster. Does it mean that it ought to be able to take a hit or two before going down? It would certainly seem so given both Change / Grenadier and Demonology / Tinkerer have such... interesting... ranges. Perhaps it wouldn't be wrong to consider an upgrade to medium robe / medium armour whilst retaining the armour buff? Or if a blanket change is too much, then why not put a talent in Demonology / Tinkerer which increases the potency of the armour buff so that we might better mitigate those TZEENTCH DAMNED ANNOYING WHITE LIONS- cough... MDPS and other stuff that we are directly pulling to our face?

I'm obviously in favour of the medium robe / armour upgrade since I believe that both classes were meant to be more durable alternatives to their Sorcerer / Bright Wizard counterparts. But... I'm a little bit biased, not gonna lie.

[Sigimund]

Utility: My earlier comment was because my old engi helped his group with AP/heals/+15% damage and could also spec magnet if needed. I realise now that you are talking more about offensive utility, of the sort that would improve killing power without necessarily raising personal DPS. In which case I agree. An incoming heal debuff for Grenadier/Changing, for example.

Tree layout: I agree that Tzeentch's Firestorm and IFoC look like they're in the wrong trees and could be swapped. Engineers have a similar issue with Phosphorus Shells and Strafing Run.

"Defensive" RDPS: There's not much margin for error with these short ranges on a career that is designed to not be very mobile. A ranged snare of some kind would increase the DPS time before needing to reset and run. Instant turrets would reduce the disruption caused when we do have to move either due to pressure or to stay with our group.

[Karast]

I have never gotten what defensive RDPS is actually supposed to be, and the dev's on live could never give a clear answer either, as to what makes engi / magus defensive.

We are not that much more defensive than any other rdps. We die just the same with focus. In fact we suffer a lot due to setback in ST spec's. Our dps when trying to kite, or trying to push is really bad. Outside of a few slow tick low damage dots, and 1 instant we don't really have anything.

The moment you start to kite, push, or you get melee on you your dps is gone.

So I don't really like to talk about balance off the defensive rdps concept. It was dev speak from the early alpha days that never materialized into anything.

[Nameless]

personally i would like to see shatter limbs and bad gas momved entirely to engi/magus. Slayer is soo better than anything that shatter limbs will be missed but wont ruin the class. SH will give bad gas with pleasure since it is at awfull tree, hard to fire and making sh' to run akward spec.

other thing that will make engi/magus much more desirable will be 3 sec root that doesnt break on dmg and usable as steeky feets. Give them that and magus/engi will be very important for orvr when fighting the zerg.

2 unique utilities that will make these 2 classes much more enjoyalbe add to that pet castable on move and you will got complete and pretty balance class that will have its use

[tomhardly]

I've read the start of this thread and was curious if the mentions of Changer's Blessing are indicating a change to it's effect? I found while playing while the game was still active my Magus with toughness bonuses and Changer's Blessing's heal effect were my only viable survival option when not backed with a healing class and I was able to fight toe to toe with Warrior Priests. Is the plan to remove the 50% heal effect?