[Herder] Path of Stabbin' Horned Squig

[Thayli]

Guys, you know the drill. Stick to discussing the actual proposal, keep your own suggestions out of this thread.

[porkstar]

Guys, you know the drill. Stick to discussing the actual proposal, keep your own suggestions out of this thread.

Truth. Thank you.
I appreciate the time, research and thought spent in which the OP has crafted this interesting proposal. Strictly regarding OPs proposal, I disagree that these changes should be made to the squig pets as outlined by the proposal. My reason is that I believe better options exist for improving Squig Armor game-play...options which I will not mention here but rather will consider discussing in my own proposal.

[Grunbag]

@ porkstar : this is not for improving squig armor gameplay , but to solve some incohérences between the actual path of Stabbin pet and some buff/abilities/tactic conditions.

It seems that mythic originally design the path of stabbin around the horned squig , then change it to gas squig but "forgot" that abilities tactic linked to squig pet won't work as intended anymore .

First incoherence : stats :
When you're choosing path of Stabbin , some of the important stats are strength , wounds , toughness , and armor . That's the stats supposed to be received by horned squig (strength changed recently by aza?) . It means that if the horned squig was the Stabbin pet , it would be really stronger . You also really need to keep your squig alive to save your armor bonus : the horned squig has 200% armor (compared to gas squig 100% only) so a better survivability in the melee .
To add more power and survivability to your squig pet (and to you by the way) , you can slot :he's a big un that add +160 strength and toughness to you pet. Problem : gas squig doesn't use strength stats (while horned squig does) so actually useless

Second incoherence : some path of Stabbin abilities require your squig to be close to you or your target .
Actually , the path of stabbing pet has a 100ft range when 'ere squiggy! require your squig to be within 40 ft of you and git em require both you and your squig to be within 35ft of your target .
That's why it was obvious to me that a melee squig would solve all those problem .

Catholicism gave another solution : reduce gas squig range to 35 ft and change gas squig to use strength instead of bs .

It's also a good solution , but to me horned squig still more tanky (bonus received by wounds and toughness) and better def stats (armor) than the gaz Squig.

In my proposal the problem seems to be the horned squig punt and the gaz Squig spore cloud .


About squigs survivability :

Also , i made a test between the 2 squig against 2 warcry griffon (36) in praag :

Gaz squig : died before even kill one griffon

Horned squig : killed the 2 griffons by it self, and left the fight with 19% health

as we can see, gaz squig is really weak in a melee fight, even with his heal ability, when horned squig is really more stronger, powerfull.

Then tested git em with both squig (within 35ft of the target)

Horned Squig : 1rst attack : 93 dmg (52 mtg)
2nd attck : 93 dmg (52 mtg)

gaz squig : 1rst attck 55 dmg (36 mtg)
2nd attack 55 dmg (36 mtg)

actually git em is better with horned squig than gaz squig (probably due to strength stats) so i guess git em use strength stats?

(also noticed that sharp toof tactic is not working, but that's belong to bugtracker)

[catholicism198]

Spoiler:

@ porkstar : this is not for improving squig armor gameplay , but to solve some incohérences between the actual path of Stabbin pet and some buff/abilities/tactic conditions.

It seems that mythic originally design the path of stabbin around the horned squig , then change it to gas squig but "forgot" that abilities tactic linked to squig pet won't work as intended anymore .

First incoherence : stats :
When you're choosing path of Stabbin , some of the important stats are strength , wounds , toughness , and armor . That's the stats supposed to be received by horned squig (strength changed recently by aza?) . It means that if the horned squig was the Stabbin pet , it would be really stronger . You also really need to keep your squig alive to save your armor bonus : the horned squig has 200% armor (compared to gas squig 100% only) so a better survivability in the melee .
To add more power and survivability to your squig pet (and to you by the way) , you can slot :he's a big un that add +160 strength and toughness to you pet. Problem : gas squig doesn't use strength stats (while horned squig does) so actually useless

Second incoherence : some path of Stabbin abilities require your squig to be close to you or your target .
Actually , the path of stabbing pet has a 100ft range when 'ere squiggy! require your squig to be within 40 ft of you and git em require both you and your squig to be within 35ft of your target .
That's why it was obvious to me that a melee squig would solve all those problem .

Catholicism gave another solution : reduce gas squig range to 35 ft and change gas squig to use strength instead of bs .

It's also a good solution , but to me horned squig still more tanky (bonus received by wounds and toughness) and better def stats (armor) than the gaz Squig.

In my proposal the problem seems to be the horned squig punt and the gaz Squig spore cloud .


About squigs survivability :

Also , i made a test between the 2 squig against 2 warcry griffon (36) in praag :

Gaz squig : died before even kill one griffon

Horned squig : killed the 2 griffons by it self, and left the fight with 19% health

as we can see, gaz squig is really weak in a melee fight, even with his heal ability, when horned squig is really more stronger, powerfull.

Then tested git em with both squig (within 35ft of the target)

Horned Squig : 1rst attack : 93 dmg (52 mtg)
2nd attck : 93 dmg (52 mtg)

gaz squig : 1rst attck 55 dmg (36 mtg)
2nd attack 55 dmg (36 mtg)

actually git em is better with horned squig than gaz squig (probably due to strength stats) so i guess git em use strength stats?

(also noticed that sharp toof tactic is not working, but that's belong to bugtracker)

The problem with your test is that you forgot to take two key differences between the two squigs into consideration:
1. The Horned Squig's abilities are single target while the Gas Squig's abilities are AE- so it's not surprising that the Horned Squig out performs the Gas Squig
2. The Horned Squig has 3 second Knock Down (against mobs) which increases its survivability
I'm not saying that the Gas Squig doesn't need to be beefed up- just that there are other reasons why it appears to be outperform by the Horned Squig.
...then there's also your mastery points...did you have any invested into any mastery?
-
Yes, Get Em!, like all other stabbin' abilities, relies on strength- so you'll deal more damage if you stack strength and if you use it while in Squig Armor.

As for Sharp Toofs.. the tactic works, it just doesn't affect your squig's damage..50-100 fluff damage is all it'll deal (excluding crits.) It's a joke when you take... ...into consideration.

Horned Squig is nice but it does more harm than good because of that knock back....

[Grunbag]

This is not a problem , this is what I wanted to show : actually , horned squig doing better in melee than gaz Squig, for the reasons you mentions , that's why it's better to have it for a melee build

I made the same test with only 1 griffin , and gaz Squig is dying too (when horned squig manage 2 griffon at the same time)

I'm full stabbin , but sharp toof isn't supposed to increase pet damage on git em ?
Sharp toof:
Git Em!'s damage is increased to 419 on your pet's first attack, and its cost is reduced by 15 Action Points.

The KB of horned squig won't be usefull on a CQ fight , but it can easily get changed for something usefull : a KD, armor debuff (instead of bringing back shout, and ofc non stackable with whata blocka?) , a snare , or anything else usefull to melee tree . And gives gaz Squig a KB needed for big shooting tree .

For git em , I didn't test my dps , but the pet dps part . Horned squig made alsmost twice more damages than gaz Squig with git em .

[catholicism198]

Spoiler:

This is not a problem , this is what I wanted to show : actually , horned squig doing better in melee than gaz Squig, for the reasons you mentions , that's why it's better to have it for a melee build

I made the same test with only 1 griffin , and gaz Squig is dying too (when horned squig manage 2 griffon at the same time)

I'm full stabbin , but sharp toof isn't supposed to increase pet damage on git em ?
Sharp toof:
Git Em!'s damage is increased to 419 on your pet's first attack, and its cost is reduced by 15 Action Points.

The KB of horned squig won't be usefull on a CQ fight , but it can easily get changed for something usefull : a KD, armor debuff (instead of bringing back shout, and ofc non stackable with whata blocka?) , a snare , or anything else usefull to melee tree . And gives gaz Squig a KB needed for big shooting tree .

For git em , I didn't test my dps , but the pet dps part . Horned squig made alsmost twice more damages than gaz Squig with git em .

Oh you're right. Sorry, it was late.
It might be a bug, or might just be another thing that Mythic overlooked...
Pet damage remains fluffy but your damage is increased- mine goes from 162 to 419 out of Squig Armor and 284 to 536 in Squig Armor
...but that a discussion for another thread.

As for the original discussion...all that's needed to be said has been said. Just have to wait it out and see what Torq has in store/mind and what he decides to do with the issues that were brought forth.

Spoiler:

Squig Mount:

New abilities? (these are old Squig Herder/Greenskin ability icons):

[Teefz]

I noticed that during beta, horned squig and gaz squig got their bonus switched : horned squig gave armor bonus and gaz squig gave +10% range bonus
The pet is actually a big choice in the Path of stabbin' build, since you need the armor bonus.

Issue : The squig pet

For a unknown reason , Mythics have exchange horned squig and gaz squig's bonus. Gaz squig is the weakest (survivability) squig and take his bonus from BS and WS but actually this is the one you chose for the armor bonus in squig armor, and he is a ranged squig. Gas squig die too quickly, stay sometimes too far away from herder, and his bonus are not in line with the path of stabbin'.
When you take a look at Horned squig, it takes his bonus from strength and toughness and he his stronger against melee attack, plus it is a melee squig, so better for melee Squig Herder tactic/abilities bonus.


Solution for Squig Pet Issue

Switch back armor bonus to horned squig and +10% range bonus to gaz squig.

Using Horned squig will add more survivability to Squig Herder because having a stronger melee pet would makes 'Ere Squiggy! tactic working better.

The horned squig would be more often near you than a weak (survivability) 100ft ranged squig that stay sometimes out of 'Ere Squiggy! tactic radius (45ft), would not die quickly (200% armor for horned squig while Gaz squig have 100% armor) in the melee.
Here the horned squig and gas squig statistic in RoR :

Horned Squig

Armor: 200%
Resistances: 50%
Hit Points: 100%
Weapon DPS: Squig Herder's ranged slot and main hand DPS

Gas Squig

Base Range: 100ft
Armor: 100%
Resistances: 100%
Hit Points: 60%
Weapon DPS: Squig Herder's ranged slot DPS


Also, Git Em!'s damage bonus will be more efficient with a melee squig and, at the same time, make Sharp Toofs tactic more attractive.
Also the bonus received from strength, wounds and toughness to Horned squig would be more in line with stabbin tree and SA bonus.
While the bonus received from BS and WS to gaz squig will be more In line with big shootin tree.

Here horned squig and gaz squig at AoR Beta: (source: http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=919514 the website is in french but the abilities and their tooltip are in english, also here you can read how was horned squig and gas squig at beta/release : http://warhammercheats.blogspot.fr/2008 ... eview.html , i can link more website if needed.)

Horned Squig Buff
Core Ability Level 8
60 Action Points
2s cast 30s cooldown
You may only have 1 active pet
Summons a Horned squig pet which you can order around. This pet deals more damage than a basic squig. It is strong against physical attacks, but weak against magic.
This pet receives a bonus to Strength equal to your bonus from items. This pet receives a bonus to Toughness and Wounds that is 50% of your bonus from items.
Your armor is increased by 100% as long as this squig is alive. Cooldown will begin when you lose control of your pet for any reason.

Gaz Squig Buff
Core Ability Level 9
60 Action Points
2s cast 30s cooldown
You may only have 1 active pet
Summons a Gas squig pet which you can order around. This pet attacks from range, but is very weak to attacks.
This pet receives a bonus to Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill equal to your bonus from items.
The maximum range of your bow attacks is increased by 10% as long as this squig is alive. Cooldown will begin when you lose control of your pet for any reason.


Mythic changed their bonus at release : (source : https://www.engadget.com/2008/09/05/war ... tch-notes/)

Thanks for havig a look,

Grunbag

I haven't been much of a Stabbin' git on this server, but I figured I'd pitch in.

Overall I agree that Horned Squig fits better for the Stabbin' spec and for the overall feel of the class. It makes way more sense that Gas Squig(with 10%range+) is linked to Big Shootin' and I never did understand why they started swapping the pets amongst the different paths back on live. Though having said that, there is a lot of tactics on this class that, if this proposal gets considered, that really needs to be looked at:

- The Horned Squig now receives a Strength bonus equal to the caster's Ballistic Skill from items rather than the caster's Strength.

Which is a good change and shouldn't be reverted, as it allows the RDPS Squig the choice of using Horned Squig as well. But that creates an obviously issue with the tactic 'He's A Biggun'. A possible easy hotfix would just be changing it, so that the tactic works in-tune with the above changes that Aza did. Because right now it is useless in melee, unfortunately.

Sidenote: The "issue" in Stabbin' with 'Head Butt' - Horney punting people away from you - is an easy work around with LoyalPet. Effectively only using the punt, when you ask it too. Which to be honest, ain't too bad having as a melee imo. Especially when people love to focus the big squigs.

Furthermore as mentioned by both catholicism and Grunbag, 'Sharp Toofs' is very underwhelming for the cost of a tactic slot.

I am holding off on my own proposals for the Squig Herder, while we are waiting anxiously on Torq's work and more importantly client control.

[Grunbag]

@Teefz : don't thjnk it makes he's a big un useless because actually horned squig converted bs to strength but it still use strength stats , so he's a big un still works on it .

On the same way battle squig armor convert bs to strength , horned squig do the same so if rdps squig look for a punt, they still can use horned squig, and horned squig would really act like a body guard with the armor bonus .

While giving +10% range to gaz Squig would make big shooting tree more dynamic (no need to keep squig passive near you to keep your bonus) and could be more usefull in keep siege .

I already report sharp toof bug to the bug tracker , but we can make something better with this tactic ofc

[Teefz]

@Teefz : don't thjnk it makes he's a big un useless because actually horned squig converted bs to strength but it still use strength stats , so he's a big un still works on it .

Nvm. Just tested it again. It does seem that He's a Biggun does increase Horned Squigs dmg and surviveability as it should. Good to know.

[Grunbag]

@Teefz : don't thjnk it makes he's a big un useless because actually horned squig converted bs to strength but it still use strength stats , so he's a big un still works on it .

Nvm. Just tested it again. It does seem that He's a Biggun does increase Horned Squigs dmg and surviveability as it should. Good to know.

Yes , actually changing horned squig to armor bonus won't change much for player that used it as a body guard for punt : both path (big shooting , stabbin) are stacking BS and both would increase horned squig strengh . So I'd be still good for big shooting tree to use horned squig .

I'd be interrested to know exactly what are the pet stats (wounds, toughness, armor, resist etc) to compare them.
I guess dev could help us ?

Also , I want to know if specing masteries point does increase squig stats ? Or squig pets aren't rely to any path ?