Is reward model driving current population inbalance

[lumpi33]

Did you know others warbands on both sides can also "bomb" and aoe?

I sure do, but there is no gtdc, mara aoe kd and covenant of celerity snare on order side. Destro premades can abuse the bombing meta a lot better than order. Especially vs pugs. There is no escaping. From rampage slayers and pouncing WLs you can at least run away. There are also not these warcamp stairs in praag for destro, making it easier to push out or damage attackers. That pull abusing near the stairs is an exclusive destro thing.

But yeah beside that you are right and as we all know, you are doing it on order side as well. It's not just a destro thing. Doesn't chance anything about the rest I wrote.

Don't alwas think about premade warband vs premade warband. Think about all the pugs and new players. You are destroying their fun making it unplayable for them. Having the ability to gather the best players around you and being a good lead, doesn't give you the right to do that.

Did you know we do the same thing on order? It's not a balance issue like you're making it out to be. Maybe instead of crying in chat and forums coordinate with other warbands? When we got flanked at warcamp our wb exploded. Also, might shock you to know that there are multiple ways to leave the WC that would result in the other side splitting up.

You didn't even read.

"But yeah beside that you are right and as we all know, you are doing it on order side as well. It's not just a destro thing. Doesn't chance anything about the rest I wrote."

[lumpi33]

Also, might shock you to know that there are multiple ways to leave the WC that would result in the other side splitting up.

Yeah and the next thing you hear is "Order at ch19 / manor" on your discord and chat and boom, 3 destro wbs there. Don't play dumb here. We know what you are doing. And not only you. Farming premades in general.

[Evilspinnre]

You actually think we communicate with other warbands on discord, that's really cute. Which WB were you in btw? Bene?

[Elvicof]

What prevents you or anyone on order to do the same. Why should things be nerfed because puggies cant handle it.

Pulls is broken and really should have been fixed a long time ago, but even if this happen most pugs would still be farmed over and over

[Fatpig]

Which WB were you in btw? Bene?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

[Phantasm]

It feels like it's the same story over and over again: a good leader builds a group of people he knows (non/5,nonpug) and tries to play a game. It's not the leader's fault that there is no one to challenge his group when he's out in RvR. Despite not liking the guy and his shady tactics, I still see that the problem lies on the opposite side. There are so many average people stuck in ***** guilds, playing all the time with ***** people without any effort to progress.

I also agree on the issue that there is no systemic fix to blobbing up. I'm still waiting for the devs to introduce diminishing rations from LOTD, recalculating damage/heal output based on how many players of the same faction are in the same place

24 vs 24 - 0%

24 vs 48 - 50%

If you strip blobbing warbands of their raw power, they will suddenly start avoiding each other, guaranteed. Every map is already devided to local areas, why not utilize that?

[Minisynn]

All of these changes are completely pointless, because nobody wants to play order atm.

And why would they, when you have 2-4 organized warbands holding hands and abusing completely broken pulls on the opposing side?

Only people that can even try to put up a fight against that is the highly geared xrealm guilds.

Never have I see EU prime so lop-sided.

I feel that tbh, GTDC is a complete meme in a vacuum, but in primetime orvr it's honestly so frustrating lol - I think playing Destro so much more these days has made me more aware of it since I've gotten used to not having to worry about it, but when we do Order wbs now it literally feels like you can't walk near a fight until you have punt immunity or you or your tank will be hoovered straight into the middle of a 2+ warband blob and have to spend all of your defensives trying to reposition and get back out... only to have to worry about it all over again 20 seconds later. And that's not even getting started on Mara fanboy pulls yeeting you 100ft+ away from your tank into the middle of 20-40+ players. Not to mention Mara knock into channels/morales in zerg vs zerg gameplay is absolutely devastating and basically guarantees that weaker guilds/warbands get flattened within KD window almost every time because they can't sustain 24+ people battering them while they're lying on the ground unable to defend anything for 2 seconds (though it'd help if they stopped running 4+ Warrior Priests who think they need to live in melee range but I digress).

Meanwhile when we run destro warbands it takes about 20% of the brain power to play DPS as well as when we play Order, and the threat of being heavily punished for misplaying is really only a problem if we're insanely outnumbered or *really* bollock something up. Granted I play a Monstro Mara exclusively in destro warbands which has a negative IQ requirement to play well so I'm probably biased

But that's just for warband play, the disparity in small scale ORVR groups playing Order vs playing Destro in prime time is even more telling tbh - though the double Festerbomb Shad 6 man meta has shaken that up a wee bit but not much

[Tisaya]

I wonder if it's possible to expand the fighting into PVE zones, maybe add some BO's there? It would naturally disperse the population and make blobbing less profitable.

[Rapzel]

Funny that you are mentioning that Evil. It was your 2wb+ blob that was literally destroying pvp for hundreds of players this sunday prime in praag. For hours.

I was working Sunday night so I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes , but does it not sound strange that 50 players have the potential to bully "hundreds of players"? I mean according to certain destro players, order premades destroyed the weekend SC for them the whole Sunday.

People couldn't even leave the warcamp. You were non stop roaming near the order warcamp, killing everything that tried to go out with a very abusive tactic. Push, kill, fall back, let people come out, mSH m2 snare, rush in, mara aoe knock down, gtdc spam, burst everyone down in seconds, leave a few minutes and do it again.

Okay so here what you are implying is that it is not a balance issue, as one might think when 50 players can easily take on 100+ players. Instead it is a "abusive tactic" that is applied, this lines up well with the destro perspective that Order premades abused them in the weekend SC.

It's one thing when premades are strong, but what your premade and buddies were doing was on another level. It is abusive to the maximum and game breaking. Hundreds of people had to suffer from that game play. You and your buddies destroyed the pvp evening of a ton of players. That had nothing to do with just playing premade and having fun. That was abusive to the maximum.

You admit again it is not a balance issue, it is "abuse".

It's at the point were devs have to step in and nerf the power of premade warbands. What these premades are doing is basically "bombing" people with melee aoe. "Bombing" and "Pulling" people into that was nerfed long ago for exactly that reason. Yet for melee blobs they don't mind. For years now. At the same time nerfing every counter play, like rdps aoe into the ground.

Ranged kite warbands are still doable on Order. Counter play? What game are you playing? Age of Empire has this sort of balance where x counters y which in turn is countered by z.

If and read if ranged order completely countered destro melee, then I guess that requires destro ranged to counter Order ranged, or am I wrong? So for you it should be that to achieve a balanced game;

1. Destro melee counters Order melee
2. Order melee counters Destro ranged
3. Destro range counters Order range
4. Order range counters Destro melee

Do you understand how ridiculous it would be to balance an MMORPG around "range" and "melee" wbs? The game works around playing well, if you keep getting farmed in the same choke 100+ vs 50 then fight somewhere else, and don't run into the same trap over and over again. Nightmare would have farmed you just as easy if you played destro and they were on their Order toons. You have already admitted to it not being a balance issue but rather "abuse" and a skill issue.

Melee aoe bombing, pulling and premade survivability in general need a hard nerf. I don't see that happening with the proposed ability overhaul. There are some fixes to pulls and melee aoe but not to premade survivability. Without nerfing survivability they will keep doing the same with classes like bombing/infernal wave sorcs and mSHs. What is order going to be using after the melee aoe nerf? BWs without infernal wave? Engis without magical damage? Sws without mSH beast mode? WLs without aoe kd? Slayers without chop fasta and pulls? Lol. Well played destro, well played.

What is premade survivability? How does it differ from PUG survivability? Nerfing "survivability" will make the puggies die even faster so what is it that you are trying convey. The ranged nerfs are stupid indeed, majority of the changes makes no sense when it comes to ranged careers (but we both know why all ranged careers are neutered and other over performing careers are not even touched), but first of all it has nothing to do with the topic and should be discussed in another thread.
When was the last time you saw a 24 man infernal wave spamming wb? Seriously, you are really grasping for straws here.

[Acidic]

Reading through this thread it is, to me at least, clear that the cause of the pop balance is directly ppl wanting easy mode, such as pugs following Brodda, nm , seventh, fun and also the blob callers. These blobs kill off smaller groups and remove a lot of fun from others, causing them to log.
The issue tends to be that the organised guilds in general tend not to want to blob as it reduces their rewards and gives a meat shield so they can kill in their pace all while the reward are not significantly reduced as the organised wb hits much harder and the following pugbands get some kills (more than they would solo) , so result is organised don’t normaly like pugs with them but does not hurt rewards and also gives benefit in size of group can be attacked.

So we have choices if we want to change the behavior
A) adjust rewards as per op
B) adjust rr -reduce total rr a death gives , rr reward dependent on how manny ppl attacked a toon current rr gain * min(1, 18/attackers), probably need something similar for crests as well to affect organised wb
C) adjust combat such as lotd

Can’t believe that Bo or campaign changes does anything as if ppl cared they would already not blob . Blobbing is done to kill off competition so other side logs

18 used as max number of attacker likely to hit from a wb, but really probably should be more like 8 two groups tanks and healers as only focused wb gets all tanks and dps to hit the same target sadly