Evaluating differences in sustain between factions - LOTD 12/05/24

[leftayparxoun]

Hi,

I applaud you for the detailed analysis.
The only thing that i want to mention is that your assumptions of how the "REALM" is designed and works is something you should review to make sure it does not screw your conclusion.

You found some unique order skills that are not cloned to destru side but ignored some key aspects in class design.
I would highly suggest to also look at how classes are designed in general and how much sustain is inbuilt. Perfect examples would be WE/MSH/Mara vs WH/aSW/WL
or AM vs Shaman ....

To write that order is built around sustain is at least questionable.

TO be Fair RoR made it more difficult to have a single identity because they removed a LOT of the core mechanics of the realms and built in several changes without a design philosophy ... (order was crit stacking king while destru was a morale pump nightmare )

Hi and thanks for the reply.

For the example of classes that you mention I would say for sure that Mara is meant to be tankier than WL
(self heal built in AOE spec + reduced armor pen% buff --> more time for healers to keep them up)
For WE vs WH or MSH vs ASW I am not sure which is tankier but the statement was meant to be in the context of warband play, especially since that dominates LOTD warfare. You will almost never find ASWs in warbands, nor WEs or WHs.
The Destro class I'm least familiar with is Shaman (so please correct me if I'm wrong here) but I assume you are referring to their auto-detaunt racial tactic in the comparison with Archmage.
While it's true that it offers them a big survival benefit vs AMs, that is only for the healer itself. The buffs/debuffs I talked about in that section can affect not just 1 but 6 or more people from either realm.

[TrainInVain]

In total 48 tanks, 80 dps and 79 healers for Destro
In total 42 tanks, 90 dps and 55 healers for Order

I wouldn't be able to put the amount of time and thought into a post like you have. But I zeroed in right away on the number of healers, and slight edge in tanks destroy had and would have guessed they had better sustain. We don't know how many order toons actually even used the sustain tactics and abilities you listed. In my experience, most RvR and SC given roughly equal player skill and numbers, will be won by the side with an edge in number of heals and tanks.

Ratio of S&B tanks vs 2h. To me the guard swapping ability of the player far outweighs what class they play. I don't have numbers to back it up, but the blork and BG self buffing block, feels far more important for mitigation than the sustain abilities order has.

Number imbalance in healers translating to more rez's and means more sustain.

How many guild leaders did you ask about blobbing? Equal number of inquiries for each faction?

I don't mean to come across as arrogant, but two of those order guilds I've never heard of.

[Acidic]

Now that is a proper stats workout.

It’s a very very good read and well worked discussion.

My read on the conclusions will have to wait till brain cools down , that was a lot of good theory, impressive work.

leftayparxoun for president

[leftayparxoun]

In total 48 tanks, 80 dps and 79 healers for Destro
In total 42 tanks, 90 dps and 55 healers for Order

I wouldn't be able to put the amount of time and thought into a post like you have. But I zeroed in right away on the number of healers, and slight edge in tanks destroy had and would have guessed they had better sustain. We don't know how many order toons actually even used the sustain tactics and abilities you listed. In my experience, most RvR and SC given roughly equal player skill and numbers, will be won by the side with an edge in number of heals and tanks.

Ratio of S&B tanks vs 2h. To me the guard swapping ability of the player far outweighs what class they play. I don't have numbers to back it up, but the blork and BG self buffing block, feels far more important for mitigation than the sustain abilities order has.

Number imbalance in healers translating to more rez's and means more sustain.

How many guild leaders did you ask about blobbing? Equal number of inquiries for each faction?

I don't mean to come across as arrogant, but two of those order guilds I've never heard of.

Thanks for the reply.
To tackle exactly what you pose here I have to focus on what this analysis was able to quantify.
That being essentially how much each faction managed to slowdown enemy kills. That is quantified by the true ratio of healing to damage on the target which I call Recovery. Sustain is a concept adjacent to this since it doesn't necessarily involve kills/deaths and which I mainly talk about it my interpretation of results.

So after making that clear let's re-examine what you pose:

- Destro had 6 more tanks. Destro also had 20 more people join in late due to people exiting and being replaced. that is around 1 out of 10 destro player beings replaced. Assuming 1:2:1 ratio of tank/dps/heal leaving and in queue, if the initial number of tanks was X then the total amount of tanks than joined LOTD was 1.1*X = 48. Solving that we get ~44 tanks, meaning that Destro should have only had around 2 more tanks than Order at any time. Even if that isn't the case and the +6 difference was there from the start, Order is able to build more ranged 6man comps that don't require tanks compared to Destro. Also check the ratio of rdps to mdps for Order for that point too. Meaning that more tank spots are ''freed'' for the Order warbands.

- The difference in heals, similar to tanks, should again be less than it seems. Doing the same trick as before we get 72 Destro healers vs 55 healers for Order. However in this case, I'd say Order had way more dps healers in the form of AMs roaming in ranged comps. Taking a closer look to the gear brackets of the healers we see that Destro had around 15 more pre-Vanq healers and 10 sov healers. But how big of a difference in healing is that? I've actually already looked into that in the analysis by summing up the total heal numbers of the factions: 33.2 million for Destro vs 32.9 million for Order (in the ''What happened in this LOTD'' subsection). Barely a difference. This is mainly a result of Swordmaster healing so if you want to actually have a rough idea of total healers per faction you could also count them in:
72 Destro healers vs 55 healers + 14 SMs = 69 total. Maybe with that perspective the equal total heal numbers make sense.

- Number of rez's can help with sustain, but it cannot help with Recovery; that metric is only involved in the process of a kill. If anything having more rez's can both make it very likely that the newly resurrected target dies soon after without any heals (lowering the average Recovery of the faction) and also occupies the healers that could be otherwise healing people that were dying (which would increase Recovery).

- As for the last question, you are completely right. I didn't ask any Order warband leaders from that LOTD if they think they were blobbing more than Destro did. It is just my, and other Destro leaders' interpretation that they didn't do so. By all means, if they believe they blobbed significantly more, they can correct me and maybe I'll consider the initial interpretation I posed a bit more seriously. Alternatively, they can dm me in private because I'm not sure that writing ''Yeah, we were blobbing all the time'' Is the thing you'd want to share at the forums

[Akalukz]

Not sure if this is the one that you analyzed or not, but thought it was rather telling. https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... b3b/damage

[leftayparxoun]

Not sure if this is the one that you analyzed or not, but thought it was rather telling. https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... b3b/damage

That is the LOTD I analyzed, yes.

[Nameless]

On last lotd destro had bh, fmj, hob. This should be enough if not for win at least for pretty balanced fights. But again we had warcamp farm for 30 mins without possibility to repent the enemy.
So there us something more than organisation when we speak about large orvr encounters. Something is just off

[Andamarine]

- The difference in heals, similar to tanks, should again be less than it seems. Doing the same trick as before we get 72 Destro healers vs 55 healers for Order. However in this case, I'd say Order had way more dps healers in the form of AMs roaming in ranged comps. Taking a closer look to the gear brackets of the healers we see that Destro had around 15 more pre-Vanq healers and 10 sov healers. But how big of a difference in healing is that? I've actually already looked into that in the analysis by summing up the total heal numbers of the factions: 33.2 million for Destro vs 32.9 million for Order (in the ''What happened in this LOTD'' subsection). Barely a difference. This is mainly a result of Swordmaster healing so if you want to actually have a rough idea of total healers per faction you could also count them in:
72 Destro healers vs 55 healers + 14 SMs = 69 total. Maybe with that perspective the equal total heal numbers make sense.

Healing done by all 14 SMs was 3 239 609 HP, so 32,9 - 3,2 = 29,7 milion healing done by 55 order healers, that means average 540k hp healed per 1 order healer

Btw best order tank in healing was Oxidiane (LNM) - with 1 370 294 HP healed was on third place in all healing done, only 1 destro and 1 order healer was better, leaving 71 destro healers and 54 order healers far behind him.

For more context best destro healing tank was BO Grugesh (Entropy and Chaos) with 142 135 hp healed. He was on 98th place in all healing done, second in healing for destro tanks was Chosen Nagrubval (FMJ) 108517 hp healed etc...and all healing done by all Chosens and BOs together is little more than 1,1 milion hp healed.

33,2 milion (all destro healed hp ) - 1,1 milion (hp healed by destro tanks ) = 32,1 milion hp healed by 72 destro healers and it is 446k hp healed per 1 desto healer.

So my questions:

Why difference in tank healing for both factions is so vast ? All destro tanks together did way less healing than 1 SM with nearly 1,4 milion hp healed + Why average order healer healed about 20 percent more damage than average destro healer?

[leftayparxoun]

- The difference in heals, similar to tanks, should again be less than it seems. Doing the same trick as before we get 72 Destro healers vs 55 healers for Order. However in this case, I'd say Order had way more dps healers in the form of AMs roaming in ranged comps. Taking a closer look to the gear brackets of the healers we see that Destro had around 15 more pre-Vanq healers and 10 sov healers. But how big of a difference in healing is that? I've actually already looked into that in the analysis by summing up the total heal numbers of the factions: 33.2 million for Destro vs 32.9 million for Order (in the ''What happened in this LOTD'' subsection). Barely a difference. This is mainly a result of Swordmaster healing so if you want to actually have a rough idea of total healers per faction you could also count them in:
72 Destro healers vs 55 healers + 14 SMs = 69 total. Maybe with that perspective the equal total heal numbers make sense.

Why difference in tank healing for both factions is so vast ? All destro tanks together did way less healing than 1 SM with nearly 1,4 milion hp healed + Why average order healer healed about 20 percent more damage than average destro healer?

For tanks I'd say because of ''Blessing of Heaven'' tactic being unmitigated and OOP healing from Swordmasters and as for the 20% healer difference I'd point mainly towards Kotbs ''Focused Mending'' +15% bonus party healing tactic. This plays into Order's sustain design philosophy as mentioned in the ''Order has better sustain tools'' subsection of the analysis.

As for why this is Order's faction design, I wouldn't know. You'd have to get a proper answer from someone else.

[Akalukz]

Not sure if this is the one that you analyzed or not, but thought it was rather telling. https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... b3b/damage

That is the LOTD I analyzed, yes.

Thanks,

I mean just look at the damage of the top 2 actual skills compared to everything else. either the LOTD Debuff is playing a larger role than expected, or something is significantly out of whack