[Chosen] SnB Chosen vs SnB KoTBs

[TenTonHammer]

Certainly holds true for 6 on 6 but don't dismiss that aoe fluff damage when it come to bombing also I do go all the way up discord to help my group keep all that magic damage in check.

I'm not specing for new skills I'm specing to make my existing skills better.

if you want aoe fluff dmg then why dis flux, why not dreadful agony?

This is I meant when i said that you have to look at the big picture. Some poeple think of the game in terms of small scale of 6vs6 or even 12vs12 while others think of it 3-4 groups vs 2wbs. Some abillties and tactics work much better in different situations. You cant dismiss a tactic or spell for being bad if it has viable use in certain aspects of the game. Some abillties are just trash or massivly underperforming in all aspects of the game. Sure. But it stuff like this that makes it hard to just compare two classes aswell.

you can say that anything is viable when you toss in mass groups of people type scenarios of orvr wb v wb or more

i can say to you that not equipping any weapons and AAing people with me fists is viable when ive got 47 other poeple backing me up

[roadkillrobin]

Certainly holds true for 6 on 6 but don't dismiss that aoe fluff damage when it come to bombing also I do go all the way up discord to help my group keep all that magic damage in check.

I'm not specing for new skills I'm specing to make my existing skills better.

if you want aoe fluff dmg then why dis flux, why not dreadful agony?

This is I meant when i said that you have to look at the big picture. Some poeple think of the game in terms of small scale of 6vs6 or even 12vs12 while others think of it 3-4 groups vs 2wbs. Some abillties and tactics work much better in different situations. You cant dismiss a tactic or spell for being bad if it has viable use in certain aspects of the game. Some abillties are just trash or massivly underperforming in all aspects of the game. Sure. But it stuff like this that makes it hard to just compare two classes aswell.

you can say that anything is viable when you toss in mass groups of people type scenarios of orvr wb v wb or more

i can say to you that not equipping any weapons and AAing people with me fists is viable when ive got 47 other poeple backing me up

We allready know thar you're just another ST hero

But reverse the situation. You're 18 vs 48 others. Do you really think your ST hero build would do any differnce then? Do you think your optimized melee assist train would make any difference. No. You would be dead before you could take down the 2nd target. While a 3 group AoE WB actually could make an impact.

[TenTonHammer]

Ok I'll bite

18 v 48 so your trying to Zerg bust

If it's an 18 man premade vs 48 man pug premade then it's irrelevant how you spec anyway buecaue you will win vs then anyway since they are all solo unguarded players with little to no communication following the herd and will dissolve after 1-2 routs

Hell you don't even need 18 you can do it with 6

If it's an 18 man vs a double premade dis flux would still be an awful aura to run

As like I said before only solo bws would die to lash back, premade healers would enoure that never happens
next reflection, it's extremely situational

1) it relies on the enemy having enough Bws or dps AMs and rps that the 3s silence results I a significant enough drop in dps that it lets you turn the fight

3) it relies on rdps specifically targeting you a a chosen, a class that more often than not will have the highest resists out of the classes in the wb, a tank and one that's using HTL at that only bads would do that

3) the primary selling point of reflection is the silence cause in a premade your not worried about heals, you don't need the speed boost cause you can ghetto charge with flee + ap potiion or flees + ap regen from power of the gods and so the silence is what you get it for and shut your face is a far more reliable 3-4 s silence with no requirements unlike what reflection and unlike it SYF lets you silence not only offensive casters but healers as well, all the while dealing massive damage from crits

And you would be taking a BO right? For WAAAAAAAAAAAGH! ?

[Gachimuchi]

I suppose I should have been clearer in the OP that I only really was interested in what Chosen brings to small scale as opposed to KoTBs. Might've stopped the theorycrafters from coming out of the woodwork with the whole 'its viable in a WB' spill.

Well since it isn't slotting those tactics for crit it has the virtue of always having the long punts and being more mobile thanks to unstoppable juganaught. All that extra crit comes at a price making you much easier to cc fact is with 3 tactic slots if you want to bring the extra crit you will lack something elsewhere .

I think this just goes to show Knight has significantly more and better options than Chosen. I can definitely see how chosen puts out more damage though.

Everything in Discord except for Quake seems meh. Since the duration nerf I might even say it isn't worth it but I've seen the effectiveness of it first hand when used on a couple healers.

[TenTonHammer]

What chosen has over Kotbs is mainly DFV and Crippling strikes but thats nothing great compared 100% 20% grp crit 10% heal crit and 15% increased healing, now some might say the down side is that 3 of your tac slots and 1 of your aruas are taken up but a party can just easily run x2 KOTBS and split up the auras and tactics so the kotbs can still run that and even more auras and tactics like superpunt, rune fang and multi target snare.


You cant run x2 chosens baecause the class has no where as manay good auars and tactics

[Shadowgurke]

People usually cite crippling strikes as being very good, but it doesn't stack with challenge, and also requires you to go 2 hander for the crit increase

People often say this when talking about CS. Fortunately, it's also not true

[Annaise16]

People in this thread are making very broad generalisations about the relative effectiveness of CS versus the kotbs crit buffs. It makes me wonder if you have really compared the two.

A 25% damage decrease is straight forward. It will reduce 1000 points of damage to 750 points.

The crit buffs are more beneficial for some classes than others. So let's look at how an extra 20% crit will contribute to ability damage for the 3 different archetypes at base crit chance of 45%. (The base crit chance = attacker's chance to crit + the target's chance to be crit. 45% is a fairly representative value for tier 4 stats.)

For +50% crit damage classes, an extra 20% chance to crit (from 45% to 65%) will increase average dps by 8%.

For a +100% crit damage class, the extra 20% crit chance will increase average dps by 14%.

For BW at max mechanic, a 20% buff from 80% to 100% will increase average dps by 14%.

Now extra crit chance provides other bonuses, increased chance to proc buffs/debuffs, increased chance to get a string of crits, etc. But it requires a 33% increase in dps to balance out a 25% reduction in dps, and those two crit tactics combined aren't going to come close to doing that for a single toon.

So the relative effectiveness of CS versus increased crit comes down to how effectively CS is applied and whether or not it is cleansed. The kotbs can guarantee the extra crit chance for a group for most of the time while the aoe application of CS is a hit-and-miss affair. CS can also be cleansed by WP and RP.

(This is another reason why group-cleanse should be removed from the game. It makes it too easy to completely negate what is one of the key abilities of the Chosen class. At the same time, it makes the WP a must-have inclusion in any group coming up against Chosens. This is at the expense of either AM or RP.

Chosen can apply CS to only so many toons at a time. If healers had only single target cleanses, they would be forced to identify which targets to attempt to cleanse (the main dps), while ignoring CS on other targets. This would increase the skill requirement of the game while evening out some of the imbalance between healing classes. If CS was deemed to be too powerful under these circumstances, it could be nerfed by a reduction in debuff to something like 20% and/or an increase on the cd of Rending Blade to something like 7.5 seconds. It could also be changed so that it could be cleansed by all 3 healing classes.)

[Gachimuchi]

People usually cite crippling strikes as being very good, but it doesn't stack with challenge, and also requires you to go 2 hander for the crit increase

People often say this when talking about CS. Fortunately, it's also not true

Literally? Yes, you are right. In practice? I would say not. There is still the whole 'doesn't stack with challenge' thing on top of that.

[TenTonHammer]

Yeah but with bo stat steal its very easy to crit people now.

CS dosnt stack with challnge but it dosnt stack with YMM and reducing a slayers dmg by 45% is pretty good

[Shadowgurke]

People usually cite crippling strikes as being very good, but it doesn't stack with challenge, and also requires you to go 2 hander for the crit increase

People often say this when talking about CS. Fortunately, it's also not true

Literally? Yes, you are right. In practice? I would say not. There is still the whole 'doesn't stack with challenge' thing on top of that.

What Tenton said. 15% crit is not that much in the grand scheme of things. Losing a tactic slot and going 2H is not always worth getting 15% more chance to apply CS. The only tangible upside 2H has is AoE application of CS with Rending Blade, but since Challenge already does that there is almost no point. Keeping CS on 2-3 dps is more than enough to make it viable and that works easy with the base crit you have