Dev restart the balance to the beginning

[Absinth]

I''ll cry about WLs being able to move while doing the spin, i think proper positioning is a very cool game mechanic and a movable, high dmg 360º spell dumbs that down.

But i'm missing ur point here, are u saying that Choppas are weak or strong? I think they are fine as they are. I don't like the 360º u can move exactly where u want it (and u can stack with GTDC which is the same **** thing), but yeah, it is what it is.

And i'm also not a fan of proc meta. Forces you to run too many of the same class (like Rampage/GTDC meta did aswell) and fights are too fast. But if Devs nerf procs right now without any other changes, i have a feeling it will turn into a Morale Meta and Order is just ****. SW's morale drain got nerfed, Mara got their morale drain (used to be a morale halt), Blorcs have a morale drain now to. I'm consistently getting Bellowed + M2 pushed when i'm not even at M2. If that becomes the main win condition for a fight, its just over imo.

my point is that choppa is just fine and the proc meta is what makes them look too strong and there are other chars that have way higher damage output, and yeah morale meta is not fun when all of the game dumbs down to one thing. Hopefully the healer changes will make the problem of procs less of an issue and then dps changes after healer ones will make it less of a proc based hell and keep us away from morale meta.

[Lisutaris]

Current riposte tactic is broken for sure and would have needed a hotfix the day after that change / patch got released.
It should be viable and strong, but 0,25s cooldown on proc is just ... yeah, don't do that Kinda surprised it got on live like this.

[akisnaakkeli]

Current riposte tactic is broken for sure and would have needed a hotfix the day after that change / patch got released.
It should be viable and strong, but 0,25s cooldown on proc is just ... yeah, don't do that Kinda surprised it got on live like this.

In live Procs were 025s icd but Riposte was 1s(or 05s) but it could do crit dmg as well, and Leonine Frenzy was 05s icd, and could crit with Witchbrew=) Now % based things like tactics or sl/ch mechanics boost affect wpn/grp dmg procs and do 600 prayer of wraths and no one else goes over 300 in your party with it. Make Le,Wb,Riposte crit again and increase riposte icd to 1s but not be affected by %

[Rotgut]

Riposte isn't doing all this that OP thinks it is.

I've been running it in my WBs for 2-3 weeks now, on Slayers running 4 Reflexes, Parry Talisman and an IB on their party. After strikethrough, thats a Slayer with 60% Parry. They are still doing less damage then WLs.

It did 100k out of the 100kk Kill Damage that Slayer got, in oRvR.

But its a fun tool because it engages with more than one aspect of the game - positioning, timing and theory crafting. You can bring less WLs and BWs to make an IB (literally the only reason u would want to run the current IB over a SM) and double SLs party so that party can face tank and bait an enemy front line, which makes it easier for the other parties to avoid their Cone of Fire, as good mDPS should do. And its not like its a stupidly broken play. Know what happens when u flank a 60% Parry Slayer? He **** dies, that diaper wearing stuntie is running around with 60 tough and 2.5k armor.

And it also rewards timing because the pressure that Riposte imposes in a random AoE spam is minimal, its pretty much the same dmg as Jagged Edge, but it spikes during Channel Drops tho. If u can time ur Channel Drop during their Channel drop, then actually looking at ur damn screen and making a good call as MA gets rewarded.

And if its strong in solo play, then good. Get behind him and don't get parried, positioning should be a major mechanic in 1v1s.

But as it is right now? Riposte is fine. We can talk about nerfing it after ID and Dual Wield 10% parry buff get fixed, thats gonna spike SL's dmg and then maybe Riposte is gonna become an issue.

[Lisutaris]

Current riposte tactic is broken for sure and would have needed a hotfix the day after that change / patch got released.
It should be viable and strong, but 0,25s cooldown on proc is just ... yeah, don't do that Kinda surprised it got on live like this.

In live Procs were 025s icd but Riposte was 1s(or 05s) but it could do crit dmg as well, and Leonine Frenzy was 05s icd, and could crit with Witchbrew=) Now % based things like tactics or sl/ch mechanics boost affect wpn/grp dmg procs and do 600 prayer of wraths and no one else goes over 300 in your party with it. Make Le,Wb,Riposte crit again and increase riposte icd to 1s but not be affected by %

Live like on live RoR wise, not AoR.

I don't have anything against riposte, quite the contrary, I think it's a great tactic and tool.
But as it is right now, it's overperforming vs fast hitting melee classes and some changes to the icd, like 0,5-1s would still make it very very strong and useful in 1on1 and small scale but wouldn't punish 5-6 fast attacks with 2k+ reflection. (which can easily happen in like 3s)
If critting or mitigation should be possible, don't ask me that. That's for the balance team to decide. I am just 1000% sure that it needs some attention and further balancing as it isn't in a good state atm.
Same goes ofc for other classes and abilities or tactics.

It's just very frustrating and also alarming that there was not hotfix/change/feedback to this "problem". Not even a "we will monitor it or look into it and balance it further if needed". NOTHING. That's pretty much the opposite what they playerbase had hoped/expected for.

[Vaul]

+10% damage is a good benchmark for a tactic in isolation. Brute Force +160 STR is about 10% more damage. Flanking is +15% of course but requires positioning. Jagged Edge in my tests is around 12%.

[Nameless]

Dmg increase tactics, skills, mechanics should not imply on procs and riposte damage. That by itself could fix both problems.

[GONDOR]

A lot of the "riposte is fine" comes across as copium. Riposte is like any other proc; free damage for doing nothing - you often don't get to choose which skill to parry.

The argument that it improves skill-based gameplay is also a misdirect; the skill required to overcome it is disproportionate to the effect - one has to move out of cone to prevent it, the other has to do nothing to benefit from it. People trying to move around your cone is very easy to deny, it's a 1:1 skill trade but riposte requires you to do nothing, no skills or capabilities to benefit, just have rng on your side.

To comment on something I know well; heavy blow.

A rookie heavy handed approach and misses the mark in it's intent, a testament to the dangers of comparative paper balancing approaches.

Very succinctly; heavy blow is a physical only dot, armour mitigation hard cap is much higher than magic resist (75% vs 40%).

Heavy blow may have had a ihgher co-efficient compared to other dots, but what's the context? Weapon skill exists? You need to have 500 weapon skill to bring physical mitigation down to the maximum that magic resists provides. "Stonebreaker" I hear you say - won't match or bring penetration down to half of what a debuff like Chillwind will do.

The nerf in co-efficient from 1.25 to 0.75 does not keep heavy blow worth using; I've practically dropped it from my rotation, there's no reward, benefit, or purpose on using a 35 AP skill when I could use my precious GCD to do similar damage with another and gain or maintain a buff.

Heavy Blow was something that incentivised and rewarded you to juggle your skills tightly to benefit as much as possible, now that gameplay is gone - I can achieve similar post-nerf net-effect with a less intensive resource and APM cost.

Its a textbook overstep in balance attempt - usually best practice is to be 10-15% ahead of where you think it needs to be if it's a major change (changing a coefficient by 0.5 is huge). Should have gone down to 1.10 and seen how it played out before dropping it again. Nerfing and buffing usually gives poor insight and turns the community sour.

[Rotgut]

A lot of the "riposte is fine" comes across as copium. Riposte is like any other proc; free damage for doing nothing - you often don't get to choose which skill to parry.

The argument that it improves skill-based gameplay is also a misdirect; the skill required to overcome it is disproportionate to the effect - one has to move out of cone to prevent it, the other has to do nothing to benefit from it. People trying to move around your cone is very easy to deny, it's a 1:1 skill trade but riposte requires you to do nothing, no skills or capabilities to benefit, just have rng on your side.

Yeah i see your point, we can argue whether or not its a good tactic for the game. I'm not trying to misdirect, or making bad faith arguments (if that is the impression u got from my post) for something i think its broken tho, i don't think Riposte is that strong. I'm ok with being proven wrong tho, i just honestly thing i have more data on this then OP that posted one 1v1 fight about it. Maybe he has more examples that show Riposte is **** broken in small scale then yeah, if its dumb, get rid of it.

Today i had a BW + SL with no Riposte, and a IB + SL with Riposte. The SL with BW buffs did a lot more dmg, as expected, and Riposte again did 10% of the 2nd Slayer's Kill Damage. It sounds appropriate for a tactic. And you gotta drop Jagged Edge or Flanking for it, and is the skill required to overcome those tactics less disproportionate to their effect? Flanking is pretty much the same thing right? Both plays around positioning. And Jagged Edge just rewards crits.

I probably went overboard on one point there, i'll admit it. Making a party to be "bait" is probably not working as it does in my mind, the enemy is gonna attack who they want to, so that's one less fun thing about Riposte. But its dmg does spike when the enemy Channel Drops you, as does Retribution's, so rewarding a well-timed Channel Drop call is skill based, and fun to me. And if we are gonna argue against everything which "the skill required to overcome it is disproportionate to the effect" then the list is gonna get a bit big isn't it. We gotta remove all ranged AoE, 360° AoE's, Champ Challenge, SH pets too i guess cuz u just press one button and its risk-free dmg going at the enemy.

[GONDOR]

I think every proc based damage is detrimental to gameplay. It's a game, and that requires you to play to perform.

When we start getting into procs as main sources of purpose, we have problems (as does any game).

There's a big difference between proc windows and rng procs - windows are things like Reactive or the run-speed one; when they're up you are able to make things subsequently happen. The key is that you get to make it happen.

Rng damage procs are just that - rng. It doesn't require you to do anything as a player better, tighter, or on a higher skill level to benefit, you just get it for not doing anything new or different. They don't have a mechanic implication, they don't have a reactive requirement, they are literally set and forget.

It's as low skill as you can get imho - and I'm not just talking about riposte, but all rng damage procs.

To go further on disproportionate skill trades and gameplay, it's just about how big that disproportion is. Everything has a trade of some description, but when your baseline gameplay is 0 to harness full effect, it's very disproportionate. This is a common way to detect or fix over efficient or over effective mechanics; what do you need to do to counter it? Is that a reasonable action for people to do?

A surprisingly large amount of counters in RoR are just buff stripping, and the gameplay to counter that is layering. You get into very granular APM trades, but an APM trade of 1:1 or 2:1 is much different to an APM trade of 5:1.