Seiges

[Alfa1986]

why should the attacking side have advantages? in theory, the advantage should be given to the defenders.

I agree, my only point is that currently in big RVR battles, there is not a big tactical incentive to attack if a game is tight, and order and destro have roughly the same number of warbands. This means RvR can run into a stalemate for hours, until one side gets bored and seiges.

As others have said there is a number of possible things that could be done to make seiges a bit more competitve in large cases (and probably most importantly not be exploited), and remain largely the same in smaller scale seiges.

so it often happens when there are a lot of players in the zone, an equal fight takes place (2-3-4-5 hours), then people start to go offline and the side where there is more people to play wins.

[Alfa1986]

Order has no problem getting their stuff figured out, what we do on order side less than destro does is RUN PREMADES. we actually work together and figure stuff out together. Too many premades on destro side is the problem why destro can't really stay on the same levele of aggression and intensity. You can't expect people to come and follow you if your chat is toxic . PUG is the way to go when its RVR time because you need the numbers in order to win. Running premades all day long and hoping people will bite is going to be a long wait. Map is a clear indication that something is fundamentally wrong on destro side. Drop your egos, run less premades and take control as a realm leader, get people to work together and win. when you do that onec, twice and even three times, people will take notice that "hey we can follow this guy because we keep winning". I do that on Order side, not as often as i would want because im willing to let others figure things out, but we dont have big egos trying to ruin everything, it happens sometimes but that's just human nature to fight back when someone is giving you orders. But if you become that voice in the community,that name people recognize winning with, then you have already done something most people haven't.

A friendly suggestion to my beloved Destro players.

Premades is not a way to go in RVR, get people involved, if you still want to lead your premade warband then that's ok, but communicate, talk to people. Show them leadership and they will follow.

This is also the reason why destro have less numbers. It's an incredibly unfriendly realm for casual players that just want to PUG in a WB for 1-2 hours of spare time, then leave for their real lifes.

You are not supposed to enter the game to see a 15mins chat discussion between the 3 or 2 wb leaders that actually want to communicate, neither to move forward to see how a completely unknown wb is moving away from everything and just doing their things cause they are a premade and they are too much elite to join the combined fight effort.

I play both sides, and no matter what you try to say, destros, cause this is exactly what happens, and why eventhough T1 have a bigger destro pop most of the times, T2-4 have a lower one. They simply leave to the other realm or try it for a class they want to play in order, notice that are not treated like trash by their high RR peers, read a completely normal rvr chat were leaders communicate, and enjoy the game.

Yes, my opinion is that the atmosphere playing for order is indeed more friendly than for destro.

open warbands on it and open that there are no obligations, I wanted to join, I wanted to go out. often they do not even have a leader as such, and the members of the warband are in different parts of the map. to play in such warbands constantly causes only irritation, it makes sense to join them only during the direct assault of the pile. but Destrо has several people who are not bad at leading people and leading their warbands, but this opinion is created that they still do not interact with each other, because the coordination of actions for the destro does not exist.

[Wam]

I see alot of entitlement and pointing blame especially towards organised forces lmao you couldn't make it up...
If we communicated and hand held with others(just zone blobbed yay so much fun) more it would ruin fun for us and for others but everything is very situational. You don't realise how much it takes too lead and keep own group of troops where they should be... little time for other things especially when other things are usually not consistant but if they communicate properly sometimes they get support they desire.

Most people more talk than action, why put in spare energy to people who run away from fight (cant even get one aoe group heal off and melt in seconds to fluff damage) or always complain no matter what? when you don't have spare energy to give in the first place. See it from the other side, and not side of entitlement that people have to do what you want, as you say and when you say it.

Order have more pug leaders and coverage, thats what it comes down too. Order like to zone blob more, but both realms do it when the opportunity arrises just order embrace the style alot more from my POV. I've seen at times a few wb's follow us around even when not communicating, maybe for their own safety, maybe because we always drift to the action. I don't encourage or discourage because they do them, we do us... they can go where they like and it gets tedious suiciding to escape zone blob time after time... especially when some other organised forces don't make any effort at all to seperate and just embrace it. So it is what it is on both sides.

Pugs are the backbone of each realm but destro pug groups are usually badly organised with bad setups and against greater numbers... until that changes status quo will remain. You can't keep pulling miracles out when taking inferior setups and then it has knock on effect on psychological morale when fighting greater number.

Destro Lacks someone like King Ocara who use to play and organise all the time, but its thankless task requires alot of time and energy and pugs will be bitter/jaded and ungrateful no matter what you do because thats how they role... want to be fair weather zergers, complain about other side zerging, but embrace it if they have numbers advantage then complain about premades if they do not carry them even more irony at its best. So I can see why people don't do it, you always get blame and toxic back seat leaders, just like the people who point fingers at premades me me me me ... instead of just enjoy the game, and if it was such a big deal to them maybe they should step up and do something about it instead of always wanting to pass it on to someone else. I've passed on knowledge and advices, i've done what i can other people generally do not seem as interested as much. Im sure other leaders probably in a similar boat.

As for defending its easy if you have equal numbers or anything organised because of the advantages you get... if your mass is big enough can also make up for lack of organised.

It is L2P issues, the amount of people who die from oil, when people are informed oil is about to spawn and its the same every damn time... says it is very much learn to play issues and lack of focus/effort involved...

[Fazuk]

So u guys believe 3 Guilds which plays like 10-12h each a week as a guildwarband are responsible for the l2p issue of Destro?

[mubbl]

I can just support what wam said. Would be nice if some of the guys with the sharp words would try to do more then target cap abuse.
But would be nice if you could explain, in which way destro realm would be unfriendly to new players/pugs/casuals.

[anarchypark]

Order play realm war.
Destro play premade.
That's biggest difference.

You can win every battles as premade but lose the war.
premade is just small part of larger campaign.
Destro premades ignore their role inside the 100vs100.

pug can be meat shields, cannon fodders.
be the anvil letting other allies be striking hammer.
sometimes viceversa.

destro? nope, don't follow us, don't ask our position.
our premade will farm everything. we don't wanna share anything with leeches. 2 hours bombing then i don't care zone.

that's where OP observation comes.
50 melees hitting ram? there can be same number of melees preventing it.
50 rdps on wall? attackers can make them afraid to show thier head.
oil should melt from tons of casters.
why doesn't it happen?

cuz somebody have to die doing that,
it doesn't give RP, it ruins K/D.

so they sit back and attackers suddenly have less number at keep.

one more thing,
leaders.
simple war report is enough for leaders to work together.
no need to be supreme leader to take control of other wbs.
unfortunately, destro don't have good leaders. i would say they even have bad leaders.
saw many times they let realm war fail to prove his point, to say ' i told u ', or whatever reason just choose to lose.

foot soldiers are not any better.
feels like they're testing alts.

seems destro are doomed eh ? don't worry.
order were at this state some time ago.

[BeautfulToad]

Let me just make three things clear:

1. This has nothing to do with class mechanics or server balance.
2. This is about making RoR finish more quickly, more competitive, funner and make it so there can be different tactics involved when seiging.
3. When I play, and I play a fair amount, order have just as much difficulty seiging as destro in very large RvR. This suggestion has nothing to do with server balance, but concerns the game mechanics of seiging.

Responding to any of this with "Destro use premades, order are nice" simply means you have not understood the question. Shoot down the proposal by all means, but if you want to talk about server balance, there's a forum for that.

[BeautfulToad]

why should the attacking side have advantages? in theory, the advantage should be given to the defenders.

I agree, my only point is that currently in big RVR battles, there is not a big tactical incentive to attack if a game is tight, and order and destro have roughly the same number of warbands. This means RvR can run into a stalemate for hours, until one side gets bored and seiges.

As others have said there is a number of possible things that could be done to make seiges a bit more competitve in large cases (and probably most importantly not be exploited), and remain largely the same in smaller scale seiges.

so it often happens when there are a lot of players in the zone, an equal fight takes place (2-3-4-5 hours), then people start to go offline and the side where there is more people to play wins.

Yes, I think it's a problem if both sides know that sitting in your keep and waiting for players to log off is a viable strategy. That's why I proposed this, just give a side a tactical reason to play aggressively.

[Dalsie]

I have to agree with BeautifulToad, it is less of a l2p issue. PUGS and ZERGS will always be PUGS and ZERGS, and that is absolutely fine. On the odd occasion you manage to pull them together and organise, and that's how memorable battles are made and leaders recognised, regardless of pop numbers.

The problem with sieges no one dies, its incredibly easy to either keep people alive or just res the odd person who got knocked off or died. Healing is too powerful. I would like to see something more 'hands on'. I imagine something like a heal debuff on both sides that scales with how many supplies your realm manages to run. That gives even more of an incentive to fight BO supply lines and organise groups to leave the keep/intercept etc.

The problem is 2 blobs staring at each other, people need to get downed

EDIT: Additionally, it's not often you find people actually battling for and battling to keep BO's. It generally more of a case of running around playing BO tag. This kind of heal debuff system might change that and see the battle become more fluid around the zone

[Stophy22]

The same people play both sides so to say Destro is meaner than order is silly. Also the thing where premades make it so Destro doesn’t win is funny. Because killing people till they log off and join your side doesn’t help? Premades help, don’t shoot yourself in the foot quite yet.

The problem lies somewhere else. Probably the mentality of the average player. Incentive to act differently is probably needed (as stated above people just wait for others to log off to win).

Anyway someone already said it. Pugs and zergs are their own people and some people enjoy playing like that and they should be able to.

Spoiler:

The way the system works now is: Enter zone, secure BO’s, get supplies, Keep level up, siege, win/lose, repeat.

The problems stated: zones taking too long, players playing without purpose, lack of motivation, attacking side is at a disadvantage. Did I miss anything?

Some facts: pugs usually tend to play with the mentality of winning the zone, now if they are using all the tools they have at their disposal is not known. Making a premade doesn’t mean confirming and becoming an elitist. Simply it means working together to a common goal. Elitists exist yes, but every premade is not an elitist.

Most premades of guilds or friend groups work together with the goal of getting Phat loot, just having fun in unfavorable encounters, or fighting to win a losing battle until it’s won then switching sides to repeat that. Now the conflict between pugs and premades comes from this, a conflict of interests.

Pugs want the gold bag (essentially) while premades want to gear their characters and have fun with the community they know. This is fine as this is the same reason why people do pve vs pvp. They all want different things.

Now I think a good remedy for the problem is where you get the phat loots from. Most premades enjoy just running around killing people for purple rain and medals, as stated before. This is because it’s the most effective way to climb without wasting time.

Spoiler:

I’ll admit that I only ever play solo or with a duo friend unless invited to other activities and all I ever do is roam around getting kills, because it’s fun for me and my friend.

Now if you made it so roaming around killing people helped the zone in anyway it might be a different story but most people just respawn and eventually get to where they’re going (a keep or BO) and help defend it.

Anyway I’m falling off into tangents. If defending BOs got similar renown gains as a roam group you would expect to see premade 6’s doing that for the min(effort) max(reward) mentality that is common amongs elitist players. A good population of players come from returning live players who were apart of guilds and had some organization. They want to play the game well and they want to enjoy absolute domination, some of these players think dying once is the end of the world. It’s kind of sad but they do everything in their power to prevent that, and have a lot of knowledge to actually make that a reality. Changing up the game on these players might not be the smartest of actions since theyre a little bit stuck in there ways but it could cause good changes to the zone. While still given them an environment to preform in and prove themselves. It might even elicit different comps that are better for defending even for the offensive side.

Some examples: holding a BO gets you x amount of renown per minute and x medallions (as associated with your RR- officer/conq/vanq). Optional: The rr bonus can increase to incentivize holding BOs for a longer time. After 5 minutes x renown becomes x + (x *.75). So if x=1000 you get 1000 renown per minute, then on your 5th minute you get 1750 until you get another boost at 10 minutes, then 20? Idk. Just numbers to show examples not suggested values. Note that if the values are too high you’d have to make keeps more enticing so people decide to attack in the 1st place. Something like while a keep is lit for siege all players attacking get y renown per minute.

Holding BO’s gives your zone advantages:

maybe stats
maybe siege weapon hp/atk power increase
keep upgrades?
taking away privileges from the other realm
when the enemy holds one BO you can’t use the front door of your keep
oil has a longer CD
rams hit harder.
Who knows.

Something to help pugs pug - Meaning the uncoordinated mass of players have an easier time and mistakes are more forgiving.

When 1 BO is held you get bonus a. When 2 are held you get bonus a and b. Etc. This gives incentive to hold more than one, and spices things up.

Now a huge concern is what’s stopping pug war bands from just rolling through BOs wiping the people? Absolutely nothing but hopefully they will be attacking a keep while you’re trying to stack BO “enhancements” is what I’ll call it.

Maybe have some WE WH scouts to give you information if you need to evacuate the BO instead of getting wiped. Who knows.

This is a mixture of that guys heal debuff idea and a few suggestions from the thread and a few of my own I guess. It’s just an idea, sorry if you don’t like it.