For the love of god give WH a snare

[Sever1n]

Lol the dif is simple WE have snare, WH dont. Def WE can use slow dagger from pve, but for def WH its crap. Destro side have a permaslow prock, and dictate your position by cc, order not. Destro classes have a ton panic options, order have less. Bam and neofites start to realise that their kit is not enough to do what their class supposed to do. Real answer to topic is get pocket tank for slows.

[bw10]

Damn the 3v1 class doesnt have a perma snare woe is them

[gersy]

Standard 10 second cooldown melee snare would be good. This coupled with a real charge that isn't tied to being a defensive cooldown which requires mastery points. The game needs a tiny bit more normalization between certain classes/archetypes (not in full mind you, we don't want to homogenize and ruin certain playstyles/identities just provide the same tools that everything else in an archetype has to create a similar baseline which is then built upon with unique abilities and differences). It seems they are working towards that if you look at tank rework with giving all ST punts and upcoming dps healer rework which promises charge and real potentially real dps morales for dps healers.

To preface, I am looking at these changes from the perspective of the average player of these classes who engages primarily in solo gameplay, pug warbands and solo queue or /5 "premade" scenarios. I fully believe that the class is in fully working order, and quite strong, in organized small scale/instanced content like city siege, 6v6 ranked, etc. These propositions are aimed towards improving the class for the 90% of the player base who engage in less coordinated activities and to make the classes more equal to other melee dps counterparts by giving them similar tools to get the job done.

My suggestions:


Movement:

Grant WH/WE a normal charge type ability like every other melee while removing speed bonus from the Sanctified Oil/Elixir of the Cauldron. Disallow it's use while in stealth. This allows WH/WE to have the same fluid movement ability as other classes in the midst of combat to either kite out of dangerous situations, catch up with enemies or keep up with allies. Yes this does hurt our instantaneous escape ability which is gained by using Oil/Elixir a bit as it weakens those abilities but it benefits us in multiple other areas. Further tuning to Oil/Elixir could be done to compensate the balance team feels that is required.

Snares:

Grant both stealth classes a new, baseline Snare ability learned at levels 3-12 that is exactly the same as Slow Down/Don't Go Nowhere or Cleave Limb/Debilitate for Slayer or Choppa and White Lion or Marauder. I would prefer it to be the former, 10 second cooldown 40% snare with 5 second duration. It doesn't need to be permanent, it should mirror what some other melee dps receive. Whether or not it generates combo points can be dealt with by the balance team as well but personally I don't think it should. Remove the existing snare from Snap Shot/Throw Dagger because it would no longer be needed and to prevent the classes from having both a melee and ranged snare. Simply make this ability an Axe Toss like every other melee has, just some pity damage from range to keep in combat for morale generation or hit someone far away.


Stealth:

Stealth has been modified to a point where it cannot really be used as an excuse that it is a "gap closer" since you cannot reliably re-stealth in combat and are easily seen by anyone with more than ~300 ini from far away. I define the strength of gap closing abilities by their combat use, not their pre-combat use. It is only a "gap closer" on the opener of a fight but becomes useless once combat has begun since you cannot reliably re-stealth as any small chip damage (even from aoe abilities or seemingly certain dots) will interrupt the cast. I do not propose changing stealth in any way, outside of maybe fixing how easily it seems to be interrupted since the ability patch, with the above changes there should be no reason to change it.

In closing I feel that these changes coupled with some other changes hopefully coming to the dps rework (sweeping razor to 9target and perhaps a baseline aoe ability ) would greatly help viability of these classes and improve the average player's experience when engaging with these classes.

PS: fix dragon gun, sweeping razor and flowing accusation bugs please <3

[Zxul]

stuff

Now lets ask the important question- if WH/WE will have same charge as other mdps, same snare as other mdps, same aoe as other mdps, but also stealth on top, why would anyone play any other mdps?

[zulnam]

RoR is a team game.

What exactly is stoping the other members of your party to apply the snare?

[gersy]

stuff

Now lets ask the important question- if WH/WE will have same charge as other mdps, same snare as other mdps, same aoe as other mdps, but also stealth on top, why would anyone play any other mdps?

you completely miss the point. they would play them because they offer different things to the party, a different playstyle, different lore/appearance/flavor, etc. same reason anyone plays any class now.

giving WH/WE these things would not detract in any way from any other class in the game in terms of playability it would just make them on the same playing field as those classes. stealth should not be counted in this equation is my point, because it does not really offer anything while already in combat. stealth is primarily a solo gameplay only concern. which is irrelevant to the big picture of the game as it is a team game and not based around, and should not be balanced around, solo play.

a lot of people seem to miss that there are VERY intentional base gameplay design decisions that are shared between all classes in an archetype and they overlook this when they come up with balance proposals or talk about classes in general. you will notice that most classes across certain archetypes share similarities if you look at baseline abilities, mastery abilities, etc. and WH/WE miss ones (melee snare, baseline charge) that every other mdps does. this was likely done because of stealth but in current game state and balance state it should be re-evaluted imo. stealth is not what it used to be and the game is not what it used to be on live or whatever other point in the past so there needs to be other considerations taken in place.

[Sever1n]

Somewhere in that wall of text we discovered that WE actually have a snare... It was added becouse.... No one knows actually. But now when WH ask for it all experts with microscopes redalerting. And im the lord of bias and John Snow here.....

[Zxul]

stuff

Now lets ask the important question- if WH/WE will have same charge as other mdps, same snare as other mdps, same aoe as other mdps, but also stealth on top, why would anyone play any other mdps?

you completely miss the point. they would play them because they offer different things to the party, a different playstyle, different lore/appearance/flavor, etc. same reason anyone plays any class now.

giving WH/WE these things would not detract in any way from any other class in the game in terms of playability it would just make them on the same playing field as those classes. stealth should not be counted in this equation is my point, because it does not really offer anything while already in combat. stealth is primarily a solo gameplay only concern. which is irrelevant to the big picture of the game as it is a team game and not based around, and should not be balanced around, solo play.

a lot of people seem to miss that there are VERY intentional base gameplay design decisions that are shared between all classes in an archetype and they overlook this when they come up with balance proposals or talk about classes in general. you will notice that most classes across certain archetypes share similarities if you look at baseline abilities, mastery abilities, etc. and WH/WE miss ones (melee snare, baseline charge) that every other mdps does. this was likely done because of stealth but in current game state and balance state it should be re-evaluted imo. stealth is not what it used to be and the game is not what it used to be on live or whatever other point in the past so there needs to be other considerations taken in place.

From having a WE both on live and here, stealth is better here. On live it lasted 30 sec, and WE didn't had insta stealth lol. Also, no idea what you are complaining about with stealth "not what it used to be".

Stealth doesn't offers anything while already in combat- lol. Lets me introduce you to a tactic called restealth. Can even use another opener out of there, or two in the same time since you can also use one out of instastealth.

As far as snare in team- yep, its called "ask one of your team members to apply it".

[salazarn]

stuff

Now lets ask the important question- if WH/WE will have same charge as other mdps, same snare as other mdps, same aoe as other mdps, but also stealth on top, why would anyone play any other mdps?

Comparing a WH to say a chopper...one is meant to be a ST soloist. The other is a destroyer that can drag people in and aoe a bunch of guys down. Its not even like chopper loses to WH 1v1 atm.

[salazarn]

Realising those tiny moments and dif is core to fixing balance, it should be surgically changed and given playerbase or atleast mains to say a word to prevent bad ones. Thats why last patch was complete disaster, all those extremes that give order some fun was deleted ( rampage/pounce+pet/undefFester+overalnerf to sw that was underperforming/ WoDS/ wh def spec nerf) and game instantly tuned in chopageddon tnx to 1 new button they have. Adding snare+pounce for WE was a miracle for WEs against order backline classes that dont have antisnares exept morales, and hited hard on order again. But amount of desinformation in this place is huge, so WEs now demand finishers, Sorks was demanding selfknockbacks, etc. Basically everything that creates any discomfort for destro like in BHA case instantly "fixed", but for some reason covenant, gtdc, marauder 200km pull trick, regen WE spec and other FUN stuff for destro still untouched. Thats why this topics will be in uneding fiesta of acusations in lie, and if dont devs dont read then they even have zero sense.

I actually do hope the balance team appreciate this. U can follow some wannabe esports mentality and make everything the same. Or you can allow different things to have different strengths and weaknesses that balance out overall.