Balancing Order Tanks

[Gerv]

For a long time the Knight has been the backbone of all premade and any competent group set up. I have been trying to figure out how to tone the knight down, bring the other two tanks up, while not trashing the knight. This is designed to stimulate discussion and result in a well thought out balance proposal. It may, as a result, be useful for how to tone down the Chosen as well.

Why the knight is top dog.
1. Large super punt; the only ability guaranteed to move a player from guard range.
2. The largest, by far, resist buff, 236 base while the AM and RP are 157 base.
3. A 100% up-time aoe snare which as shown by the Black Orc in any serious level of play is un-forgiving and necessary.
4. Unbelievable group utility in the form of aura buffs.

The key is then to address these qualities by bringing these abilities on the other 2 tanks up so that there is variety in choice.
The Iron-breaker.
1. Has a punt, but it barley clears guard range. First suggestion is to edit the IB punt so it grantees to clear guard range as effectively as the Knight Super Punt. If there is no alternative punt, the knight, will always be taken in competitive groups. An edit to the SM punt to the point of clearing guard range is not viable because it is AoE and this would be too much imo. More on this later.
2. Has a AoE snare, Earth Shatter, but is only 50% up-time with 10 seconds of downtime. This window can be the difference in between a kill or not if you can't contain the movement of melee dps and tanks. Therefore it should be brought to 100% up-time with a decrease in damage by 25% because it hits hard at 100 grudge and spamming it may lead to outrageous damage from the IB.

The Resist Game
Resists are needed to help reduce Sorc and Magus Damage and buff the BW damage. The knight is picked because its buff outshines the AM and RP and to counter the Chosen debuff. Therefore a solution is to either
A) increase the Arch Mage and/or RP resist buff to match that of the Knights base. This allows option to achieve the level of resistance provided by the knight and then allows the Sword Master resist debuff to replace the Knights as shown below.
B) Reduce the Knight resistance buff to that of the RP and AM to allow lower levels of late Game resistances so that the SM can stay competitive in terms of overall damage (it is at its peak right now). Buff the Healer resist values to around 200 base otherwise sorc and magus damage will become nuts in our current state and there would be little reason to drop the knight at all. I favor this point.

**Maybe the Knight and Chosen value of debuff needs to be reduced as well so not to completely cancel other classes buffs.

The Sword Master
1. Has a reliable resist debuff which outshines the Knights, 118 base compared to SM of 235 but is not considered because you need the huge resist buff from the Knight aura to compete with Sorc and Magus damage.
2. The SM 1.4.9 changes included a change to Natures blade, flat 160 stat steal with a 25% chance. See below.

Nature's Blade - All your melee attacks gain a 25% chance to randomly steal 160 stat points from targets within 30 feet of you for 10 seconds. During this time, both you and your group mates within 100 feet will benefit from the stolen stats.

This I believe is a needed change as it begins to break up the unbelievable group utility in the form of Aura buffs that the knight brings. The value of 160 exceeds the Knight is all aspects.
3. Increase the duration of Dragons Talon to 8 seconds to allow the use of other perfect balance abilities and giving something to Order that is some-what equal to Crippling strikes.

Through these changes, not taking a knight would result in a loss of 15% increase healing and 5% heal crit. I think everything else is covered in some shape or form by other tanks.

What do others think about these changes, do they change to much at once, do they expose too many vulnerabilities?
Does it not reduce the benefit of taking the Knight enough?

[Natherul]

Chosen and knights are going to have some work done on them soon anyway mate. They need a hit with the nerfhammer

[Gerv]

Is there any chance to catch wind of what is proposed or is it closed testing and we will find out when the changes are implemented as a result of the previous bickering over every small change in previous patch notes and threads?

[zabis]

Early access knowledge would be a great Christmas present

[Sigimund]

Auras needing to be procced sounded like a winner.

[Natherul]

Is there any chance to catch wind of what is proposed or is it closed testing and we will find out when the changes are implemented as a result of the previous bickering over every small change in previous patch notes and threads?

Nothing that I can tell you at this point, dok and wp are the ones that are currently undergoing changes but I think knights and chosens will be the next in line for a makeover

[Toldavf]

!00% up time on aoe snare. No thank you.

[Eathisword]

100% uptime on Eartshatter, accepting a 25% damage reduction is too strong a buff for IB. Well spec 2H IB can crit 1500 damage on Earthshatter every 20s. Reducing it to 1150, every 10s is very freaking strong.

Imo though, if you reduce the damage further, you cripple really badly the 2H IB ability to help on a burst.

Another way to look at it, could be to change Long Reach or Overprotective to add a snare component to Rune-Etched Axe. Kinda like the BO. 5-10s snare on REA, and 10s snare on Earthshatter. Close to perma snare but with 2 abilities and a tactic sounds more appropriate imo.

I kinda agree on the punt though. Just a tad bit stronger would do the trick.

[Dabbart]

I always thought the largest issue with knight/chosen(especially on this server) was the 100% uptime, and inability to counter/remove Aura's, except with other Aura's(or killing the tank)

Comparing the Buff values doesn't give the whole picture, since Aura's provide an AoE debuff as well.

I would like to see the knights/chosen have a similar mechanic too... 1/2 the other classes? In that they have to Build up the power of their aura's. Start at 30ft, and based on Guard/Personally being attacked/damaged increase size of the Buff range, and based on damage/attacks put out increase Debuff range. That would be stage 1 of my Magic Wand Waving for the classes.

I don't believe the classes or mechanics themselves are Broken, it's simply the ease of which you can utilize them that is.

[Panzerkasper]

Chosen and knights are going to have some work done on them soon anyway mate. They need a hit with the nerfhammer

Chosen already got nerfed to ****, how much more does it take until you people are satisfied?