FEEDBACK: AOE cap

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Natherul
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FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#1 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:51 am

Hey all!

In this thread I want your ingame feedback (no theorycrafting) on the change. What we specifically want to know is:
  • Did you play with the change?
  • What career did you play with?
  • Is the change good as it is?
  • Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
  • Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
  • Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
As always its a feedback thread and should be on topic and no insults are accepted. As such this thread will be heavily moderated if needed.
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Aurandilaz
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#2 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:42 am

Yes, played several hours yesterday, tried on WL, BW and SM. Will try more classes of mine as time allows. Tested my SL/(ch) and WE/(wh), which both have still the old limitations via tactics.

24 cap is amazing for dmg abilities in open RVR, slightly challenging in funnels. Might allow less strong debuffer classes now to shine, but also buffs ranged bombing a bit. However, some abilities will slightly overperform with 24 cap (aoe kds, aoe arm debuffs, aoe morale roots/silences, aoe disorients, aoe morale drain). Some of these would not be an issue if both sides had equal access to them, but lacking Mara arsenal on Order, unless some Destro debuff potential is limited, a proper Destro warband will rangebomb and debuff bomb Order enemies in ways previously not though possible. On the other hand you retain BW aoe potency, but now with thoroughly nerfed Flashfire the ranged situation favours Sorc when it comes to +60-85ft bombing.

I'd maybe consider setting 18-15 as the generic cap, for ALL unless otherwise defined. Then start going through "harmless" aoe dmg and then possible allow them to hit 3-6 targets more than the general cap. Challenges with 18/15 targets are very strong, same with dok/wp essence recovery, or aoe CC of any kind [Sorc M4 unbreakable morale root, Knight M3 root, BO M3 5s Silence, AM M2 AoE Disorient 5s, Squig AoE KB]. Some of those might need a cap as low as 12 or old 9. [especially zealot Winds of Insanity + mara AoE KD]
For "generic" AoE dmg attacks, 18-24 is fine. For AoE that has dmg+debuff portion, 15-18 should be fine. For massive debuffs/CC, 12-15 should be fine.

I'll list all abilities I remember in a bit... and edit more in later when I remember
(that should have lower caps, generic AoE dmg can be higher generic cap)

-SH Badgas/Indigestion cd increase
-SL Shatter Limbs cd increase
-Zealot Winds of Insanity
-BO/Kotb M3 silence/root
-Sorc M4 unbreakable root
-AM M2 5s Disorient at 100ft
-Zealot/RP aoe arm debuff
-Zealot/DoK AoE hdebuff
-Mara aoe KD
-Mara aoe disorient
-Mara aoe morale drain
-Mara aoe Ap drain
-Mara aoe Init debuff
-BG Crimson Death
-Kotb aoe wounds/crit debuff
-Knockbacks; BO SM Shaman AM Squig BW WP DoK
-tank aoe roots
-kotb chosen engis magus aoe stagger
-engi magus aoe kd
-engi aoe disorient
-we/wh OYK+DG 24 morale drain
-BO aoe corp debuff
-Zealot aoe corp debuff
-BG/IB specced aoe snares
-dps healer abilities where dmg buff is placed on ally and then deals dmg to enemies arounbd them (RP + DoK that I remember off)



Troublesome? Mostly in funnels, which have been an issue since forever. But now, properly coordinated attackers can throw in firepower much deeper than before, not just hitting first 9 tanks at the door. Remains to be seen. PvE mobs might need cap of 12-18, which is maybe why I'd set the generic cap between 15-18 and then choose which abilities should be higher/lower.


edit; the obvious comment has to be added - your WB wont melt to generic AoE bomb if you dont stand in a pile. Have healers stand in safety, rdps bit behind, and even then dispere the frontline to be wide enough so that limited 20-30ft aoe bomb cannot hit more than 20-50% of your WB at best. Not to mention, now your healers can AoE detaunt whole enemy WB if they also push in one pile.
Basically this cap increase is a nerf to building a big blob pile, and makes it easier to tear apart blob/zerg piles. Good players already know how to position themselves to avoid most dmg, now this becomes even more important.

do
not
blob
:)
Last edited by Aurandilaz on Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2021

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#3 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:29 am

Spoiler:
Why is a cap needed at all when you bump it to 24 ... range ”cap” it anyway?

Btw I tried to find an ol interview on the subject where game designers discussed this 2006-2007 smth. (Cant find it :/)

The aoe cap was implemented bc organized well geared 8mans could killl blobs in daoc. It was a safeguard for pug blobs not the other way
Not feedback but related
Last edited by Bozzax on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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madrocks
Posts: 94

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#4 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 am

-
Last edited by madrocks on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:06 am, edited 30 times in total.
Lutzgaroth

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Acidic
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#5 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:15 am

Career: Black Orc
Played changes: yes
Impression of change:bad
Suggested cap: 6 (will bring aoe and st into better balance) increase diversity of class viability
Issue area: increases meta dependence and setup gap between pug and organized reducing fun while increasing Rolf stomp


My initial view of the change is that is does not improve game play or alter zeroing.
The change only increases the effectiveness of aoe dps classes and makes The difference in output even more noticeable on the battle field.

Here is a video of the new game play

Click here to watch on YouTube
This clearly shows fights are even faster, pugs get completely destroyed and when organized wb blob (in this case order) they kill everything in their path. So change is not improving things just making the things it is trying to fix worse

The skills that made any particular class into the meta have been amped up casing them to be even more effective. This is obviously a boost to min/max teams as thier damage output is increased about 2 1/2 times due just to increased target cap.

Result of this is difference between pug and organized is magnified by said 2 1/2 meaning a decent organized WB is more effective fights over in much shorter time , generally a reduction of fun.

Siege : not tested yet will come back to

Zerg: the only change affecting here is the content of the Zerg, if said Zerg is organized it will be able to blow though anything else if Zerg is weak it will get wiped .

Summary : increased aoe cap only reinforces the gap between well performing classes and gear, the results are fights over extremely fast and not interesting fights.

Where should the limit be : probably 6 pr less
Suggestions how to handle aoe: reduce damage out put in proportion to targets his, ie aoe damage and st damage total output is much close to each other

Note: blobbing and the maps. Currently the zones provide large numbers of chock points espcialy t4 maps. These maps with tunnels, mountain ways, bridges , keeps, forts and such force WB vs WB fights to have very narrow compact front lines . Typically the spots that bomb WB shined in the past and will be unstoppable with this change. As said range effects are mitigated in open areas but the choke points are plenty and have significant impact on the game. So arguments about range have impact but still are not Mitigated by unblob due to maps.
In general Some classes win and some lose but overall there is huge dps shif in the game, moving it closer to just a pure dps race instead of some tactics. This shift will further alienate certain classes while bringing range aoe into a better place

Note 2: seems like the split of good/bad is according to class players play with BW and typical air classes in favor rest not. Makes sense as archetype has a lot to do with the player mind set. With this change game moves away from the fight and just into win/lose without ifixing Zerg but just make if meta ape DPS oriented.

Note 3: Update after Tuesday fights in CW
The blobbing was excessive from order side , as predicted the blobs just get bigger
The fights WB vs WB is over in seconds, it’s not fighting its “mass free cheese”
Duel guild bomb WB with stacked BW incinerate pretty much anything
Single guild warbands Rolf stomp pugs
Summary , even if we kill a WB this is just not interesting and a very low entertainment play style to the point of wondering why we logged in

Note 4: the problem with this change is that it is geared at enabling Bomb warbands to take out/hurt zergs . The problem is that the mechanics that a bomb warband use is identical to that of the Zerg. That is concentrated fire .
The bomb groups do this by blobbing and this is exactly what a Zerg does.
So any change that favors a bomb group will be definition feed the Zerg.
To this extent increasing aoe cap , damage or healing in aoe form will feed bomb and Zerg group alike.
Only thing to do is reduce aoe damage when stacked so that it punished blobbing into very tight compact groups. Doing this would also fix class inclusion as aoe centric bombing will not have the same effect.
Last edited by Acidic on Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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convexte
Posts: 12

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#6 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:55 am

Played in KV, TM and BC yday on order side as WP, BW ans SL.This change is really good.Destro 40+ man blobs start feeling the damage, almost nothing changes for 18-24 man wb which solo roaming.As anti-blob tool it working pretty well.

Agree with Aurandilaz about CC abilities.Maybe WP/DoK aoe detaunting 24 targtets is too much too.
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Natherul
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#7 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:57 am

Ill note 2 small things:

1. GTAOE siege already ignores aoe cap and pretty much always has. In fact it does more damage if it hits more targets.

2. This change ofc increase bombing effectiveness, but as pointed out in the notes thread its there to also hit blobs, If you gather on top of eachother ofc you will get punished with this change. Point is to not have everyone then on top of eachother but more spread.

EDIT: oh and also remember that it only changes anything if more then 9 people are inside the aoe effect you cast. And as AOEs are commonly 20 feet it means it only means that it ONLY makes a difference if more then 9 people are in 20 feet radius of the impact point, meaning they are quite blobbed up.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2021

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#8 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:29 am

I can see the reason for testing. You will however be required to deal with SL, ID, FLames of Rhuin, Rampage, Focused Mendig, IB +25% oath parry effectivness
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sioding
Game Master
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#9 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:39 am

Did you play with the change?
Yes!

Is the change good as it is?
YES!

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Nope just as good as it is

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Nope good as it is - let ppl learn to live with it

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Maybe some PvE NPC´s need their abilities overworked.
OCRANA ...deal with it!
Jolinor
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Ywhi
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#10 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:09 am

Did you play with the change ? Yes,playing at KV / TM yesterday.

What career did you play with ? Slayer

Is the change good as it is ? Yes but with adjustment.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)? Yes

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)? Yes

I agree 100% with Aurandilaz, he said everything.

Pure Damage Ability 24 Cap is really good.

Unbreakable CC / debuff like KD/Silence/Zealot Punt/Shatter limbs/Challenge etc... (Aurandilaz already make a list) should maybe hit less target maybe 12-16.

(Since you can't really "counter" those abilities, we don't have dispell or Purge (Maybe having a RR spell to spend to Purge ourself like Daoc can be a possibility ?)

I don't know if it's possible to limit hitting target for each spell individually.(For your dev part :P)

Stagger: for my point of view, hitting 24 target can be "ok" since it can be break and necessite a really good coordination to not just "break everything".

I also think ability like Magnet/Rift should pull more than 6 people.

Anyway, the way to beat Huge number in Pvp game goes more by CC than Aoe damage.

So reducing the cap back to 6 or 9 like someone said, i don't really know what they are thinking.

Hitting more target means :

- Better postioning from healer in fight will win (Yep you can't stay as a blob & "hidding from damage" in a melee train now)

- 6-12 Men party with good coordination can destroy WB now. (Lesser number can actually win against bigger one)

- Make more classes good for WB despite what people say.

I'm not going to list everything, but there is so much good things what this increase hitting CAP can give us.


For all of you, stuck back in the day whining instantly about every changes. Maybe it's time to deal with it & adapt don't you think ?
Last edited by Ywhi on Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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