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NPCs as third faction.

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Grock
Posts: 660

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#11 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:12 pm

There's already a "third faction" in this game, its called Xrealmers, but instead of utilizing them to improve faction balance by providing proper incentives they are getting blocked by lockouts

A while ago we had "AAO xrealm" bonus where you'd get extra 50% rr buff (and keep all contri on current character) when switching to a side with AAO, but there was practically zero information about it anywhere. IIRC you couldn't even check or see if the bonus was currently active.

I've been suggesting to some team members for years to repair "Call to Arms" mechanic, make it shared for both factions and use it for to provide visible prompts for xrealming or switching zones, so that people who are willing to play both factions can benefit from that and reap higher rewards for helping the faction balance.

Unfortunately devs choose the other way.
Orkni
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Vri
Posts: 83

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#12 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:19 am

PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm
Skullgrin wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:07 pm

Edit: Here's my first pass at classes I wanted to see, what do you think?

Image

they HATE everyone equally and just want to be left the hell alone.
I can relate.

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Skullgrin
Posts: 585

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#13 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:42 am

PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm

While I can appreciate your zeal for this idea, there is no way on the face of the earth 5 factions would work in an MMO. The imbalance at any one time would fluctuate way too much.

The classes outlined are just the bare bones of the first part of massively sweeping overhaul of the whole game. I don't have time right now to go into an in depth explanation of how it would work, but suffice to say that it involves adding 3 more cities, more than quadrupling the number of zones, and introducing a complex enemy/neutral/ally system. Absolutely, prohibitively insane from a cost/time standpoint. But fun to think about.

Oh, and a 5 faction system has never been done in an MMO, but basic mechanics of such a system already exist in the form of Magic the Gathering. Balancing would work similarly to it, at least in some aspects.

As a final point to my ridiculous argument for my insane idea, I would like to direct you to look more closely at my chart. Technically speaking, there are ten factions, not five...

:lol: :P :lol:
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Thargrimm - Chosen 40/86
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zak68
Posts: 374

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#14 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:51 am

"...while at level 86 first signs of insanity are ineludible..."

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Skullgrin
Posts: 585

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#15 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:58 pm

zak68 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:51 am
"...while at level 86 first signs of insanity are ineludible..."

Me, insane?!? That right there is just crazy talk...

:lol:
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Thargrimm - Chosen 40/86
Thargrimmm - Ironbreaker 40/71

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PlagueMonk
Posts: 14

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#16 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:48 pm

Skullgrin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:42 am
PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm

While I can appreciate your zeal for this idea, there is no way on the face of the earth 5 factions would work in an MMO. The imbalance at any one time would fluctuate way too much.

The classes outlined are just the bare bones of the first part of massively sweeping overhaul of the whole game. I don't have time right now to go into an in depth explanation of how it would work, but suffice to say that it involves adding 3 more cities, more than quadrupling the number of zones, and introducing a complex enemy/neutral/ally system. Absolutely, prohibitively insane from a cost/time standpoint. But fun to think about.

Oh, and a 5 faction system has never been done in an MMO, but basic mechanics of such a system already exist in the form of Magic the Gathering. Balancing would work similarly to it, at least in some aspects.

As a final point to my ridiculous argument for my insane idea, I would like to direct you to look more closely at my chart. Technically speaking, there are ten factions, not five...

:lol: :P :lol:
Well even IF you could get just a 5+ faction model to work in an MMO, it won't be happening here. Even a 3rd faction is pretty much impossible since doing so would require all of the maps to be reworked and the terrain re-weaved together to account for that 3rd group. I actually thought about this very thing last night as I was wandering through some of the areas and how intricately the chapters are laid out on every map. Those responsible for planning and implementing all that did a great job of making it feel cohesive.

I fully admit, when they announced only 2 factions way back when, I was pretty disappointed they weren't following the DAoC model that even Mythic knew was superior. I can only assume based on the incomplete state of the game on release that they most likely HAD 3 factions on the table at one time but it was scrapped due to time and budget constraints.

I read in the development section someone proposed having Skaven as a 3rd faction with could, putting all the other problems aside, work. You just give them holes and caves to come out of for every area which would make map re-working pretty simple. The problem of course would be creating the underrealm from scratch. Oh but having all 4 major Skaven clans with 3 classes apiece! One can only dream.
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PlagueMonk
Posts: 14

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#17 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:48 pm

<double post>
Last edited by PlagueMonk on Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Skullgrin
Posts: 585

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#18 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:08 pm

PlagueMonk wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:48 pm
Well even IF you could get just a 5+ faction model to work in an MMO, it won't be happening here. Even a 3rd faction is pretty much impossible since doing so would require all of the maps to be reworked and the terrain re-weaved together to account for that 3rd group. I actually thought about this very thing last night as I was wandering through some of the areas and how intricately the chapters are laid out on every map. Those responsible for planning and implementing all that did a great job of making it feel cohesive.

I fully admit, when they announced only 2 factions way back when, I was pretty disappointed they weren't following the DAoC model that even Mythic knew was superior. I can only assume based on the incomplete state of the game on release that they most likely HAD 3 factions on the table at one time but it was scrapped due to time and budget constraints.

I read in the development section someone proposed having Skaven as a 3rd faction with could, putting all the other problems aside, work. You just give them holes and caves to come out of for every area which would make map re-working pretty simple. The problem of course would be creating the underrealm from scratch. Oh but having all 4 major Skaven clans with 3 classes apiece! One can only dream.

I do agree that adding the Skaven/Dwarven Underways to the game would be a great way to create new zones without too much map reorganization (and I had thought about adding it in my insane version of the game), but I'd still like to see the original factions broken apart. Especially the Destro ones, they never made any sense to me. Dark Elves siding with Chaos is problematic from a lore perspective and Goblinoids allying with anyone is just nuts. Every time I go into the side room in the IC citadel my eyes just want to roll back into my skull when I see Gromlok and Gazbag standing around a table apparently discussing strategy with Malkeith. Orcs don't make friends, they kill anything that isn't Orky. I have the same problem looking at the High Elves and the Dwarfs working together - too much bad blood in the Book of Grudges for it to work for me.

I will admit that some of the new faction races I shoehorned together were out of the need to flesh things out and make them semi-balanced, but others were added simply becasue I thought they would be fun. Wood Elves is a prime example, I just think that a Wardancer would be insanely fun class to play if the animations were done properly (of course that would be another massively expensive undertaking as well). Halflings I added as a joke, cuz I know there are lots of gnome aficionados from WoW that would flock to them. Ogres in Warhammer are typically seen as mercenaries, so I figured they could act as a counterbalance, joining whichever side was the current underdog.

Speaking of balance, I think that people worry way too much about it. You never remember/celebrate the fights where everything was equal on both sides. The fights you DO remember are the ones where you're outnumbered and you do something clever or sneaky, or survive despite overwhelming odds. Battles like Thermopylae or Agincourt...

Sure, if things get too out of balance some corrections would have to be made, but thats always been a part of life on this server. Hell, some of the most interesting and fun things that have happened over the years have been when the Dev's over corrected in one direction or another, temporarily causing widespread chaos in-game and on the forums. So balance may be found eventually, but getting there is more fun than actually achieving it in my opinion.


Side note to any Dev's reading that last paragraph - Just to be clear, that wasn't a criticism. When you change things up and make us all crazy you're doing God's work. I love it when people are shaken out of their comfort zone and made to think, even when it's a change that makes me grumpy. Remember to never take it too personally when we complain, it just proves that we care about the project. :D
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Thargrimm - Chosen 40/86
Thargrimmm - Ironbreaker 40/71

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Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#19 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm

PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm
Skullgrin wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:07 pm

Edit: Here's my first pass at classes I wanted to see, what do you think?

Image


While I can appreciate your zeal for this idea, there is no way on the face of the earth 5 factions would work in an MMO. The imbalance at any one time would fluctuate way too much.

I actually had a 3 faction version roughed out during the original WAR forums that went something like this:

Order:
- Empire
- High Elves
- Dwarves
- Lizardmen
- Bretonnia

Chaos: (some of the 4 facets of chaos would have to be broken up similar to the Greenskins)
- Tzeentzh
- Khorne
- Slaanesh
- Nurgle
- Beastmen
- Skaven

Destruction: (The VCs have different houses that could be used to match the other sides class numbers)
- Dark Elves
- Orcs
- Goblins
- Vampire Counts
- Ogres

Why no Wood Elves? They will not work with anyone and are xenophobic
Why no Tomb Kings? They would work with anyone else either, they HATE everyone equally and just want to be left the hell alone.
I think, based on both of your posts here, what sets precedence now (didn't exist when this game was developed) is both End Times and Age of Sigmar, and how GW changed the factions.

If we look at this model, we can see there are 4 primary factions in Age of Sigmar that correlate to the races of the old world. It's similar to what you have, but you are putting too much in destruction and you aren't adding in death.

The 4 factions are Order/Chaos/Destruction/Death.

Now for the precedence of the end of times. Pretty much everyone allies with someone to a degree. All of the elves, including the wood elves, re-band together into one large faction. Tomb Kings actually ally with Order more or less, although there is a lot of screwery involved w/Nagash and the rest.

So, if I were to say "lets make a hypothetical warhammer game based on the current fantasy lore of 2020", it would be something like:

Order:
- Empire
- Combined Elves (Wood/Dark/High)
- Dwarves
- Lizardmen
- Bretonnia

Chaos:
- Warriors of Chaos
- Daemons of Chaos
- Beastmen
- Skaven
- Chaos Dwarves

Destruction:
- Orcs
- Goblins
- Ogres
- Night Goblins

Death:
Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings

This would probably be the most lore appropriate way to do "more than 2 factions". You could also easily do 3, and just cut out Death as playable characters.

Zxul
Posts: 904

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#20 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:13 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:06 pm
This might just inspire me to make a fantasy suggestion subsection that we can gather these kind posts into. They're fun to imagine and overthink about, but reality is not going to be kind to them.
Its does makes me though wonder even more just how did GW1 pulled it off, with them being the only mmo that I know where mobs effectively use abilities and tactics. Especially that GW1 is even older than AoR.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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