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Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

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CptGeorges
Posts: 28

Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#1 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:20 pm

I am by forum rules required to reinstate everything I have said over three different threads in the Empire Classes section for your viewing pleasure here, since apparently those suggestions there are not read, fine, lets move it here.

Currently with the removal of Mighty Soul, an already meager tactic that nobody even used seriously except high geared full pve and 4 part sov 2 part warlord knights, there are no GOOD reasons to play kotbs. If you add arcing swing to a onehanded weapon for example (this is a hypothethical, not a suggestion), then you would have no reason to play a great weapon other than a punt CD reduction and power.

So where do we begin?

Well let's start with looking at the Chosen mirror. Notorious for being a strong solo tank and capable of doing great damage with the weapon, this nerf hit him as well. However the chosen still has a tactic that gives him critical chance, the strength and weapon skill buff on parry and the ability to still do spiritual damage via channel. Let's not forget that unlike the chosen, kotbs has no WS buff. And knight's gear up to warlord has barely any WS. But WS is only a part of the problem.

Now everyone knows there is no pandemic of solo kotbs running MS ganking people. Everyone claiming this is either playing in some strange server times or is a bad actor. But I hear some say "I see kotbs top scoreboards sometimes in damage. Surely they dont need MS." It is common knowledge for EVERY KotBS that if you want to top damage in your average scenario match, you just activate dps auras. Thats it. Has nothing to do with Mighty soul. And I don't need to tell you that aura gameplay is only so engaging as a mechanic.

If you want to remove Mighty Soul, fine. But give us a damage alternative. Make everything in glory tree elemental damage maybe? Would make Sunfury more picked. Make myrmidia's fury elemental? Give old runefang back? These are all in the right direction. There has got to be some reason to play 2h other than arcing swings. Otherwise why are they in the game? The chosen gets to pick between multiple playstyles. The new kotbs gets a bad elemental dot. And listen... elemental damage on Heaven's Fury?... a stagger? Who cares. It's a non-buff. And if used for damage it's a detriment to your team. Please take a look at the KotBS 2h's options and compare them to say IB, SM, or Chosen.

I am not saying you are to buff it to oblivion. But give it more reason to play 2h. Even if everything is made elemental in glory, that is no reason to play 2h. You can spam blazing blade as a shielder as well. Again, don't get me wrong, arcing swings are great. But they are not essential, and you pay too much to get it and get only that in return. Even crit can be gained by dirty tactics, even if it is 5% it is still with a shield. In the current state of the game, a 2handed kotbs weapon is used as a magic wand that temporarily removes max hp.

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mytreds
Posts: 144

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#2 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:38 pm

It is scary that a person who doesn't play knight or chosen helped influence this change. It's clear that the devs and notdevs want us to play their way not our way.

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Ramlaen
Posts: 116

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#3 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:00 pm

mytreds wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:38 pm
It is scary that a person who doesn't play knight or chosen helped influence this change. It's clear that the devs and notdevs want us to play their way not our way.
It's not really the devs wanting players to 'play their way'. DW made Chosen extremely OP in solo/small scale but to remove it they couldn't leave the KOBS version in game as well.

What is concerning is the complete disregard for what removing those tactics means in actual gameplay terms. It is completely understandable for KOBS players to be upset that they were nerfed harder than Chosen in what was intended as a balancing move for Chosen.
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop

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zulnam
Posts: 255

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#4 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:17 pm

100% agree.

MS was always a tactic to get only for solo/small-scale/SC mash-ups. Any 2h knight running in oWBs would not use it since they were there purely for the Wounds debuff; not to do dmg.

I've always tried my best to not give devs a hard time, but this feels blatantly wrong; to not say worse. The DoT is a joke, imo, and Heaven's Fury as elemental is objectively and arguably pointless.

At the same time, the argument that 'we do not want to have classes mirrored over factions' seems to have been forgotten in this decision; unlike, say, when they changed Runefang only for knights; the actual reason why we got Mighty Soul as a baseline tactic in the first place. No one was complaining about imba knights roaming the lakes, killing defensless destros like they were nothing.

Now we have no Runefang, no Mighty Soul.

An AoE nerf for a problem that seemed so simple: make the Chosen variant trade-off harder to take than 'less healing'. Like Mighty Soul. :roll:
SW, Kotbs, IB, Mara, SH

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MoltenCoreMoshpit
Posts: 28

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#5 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 pm

the original design of mythic is being lost over time to constant meddling. Uncapped aoe was not in live and it has a major impact on how the game is played

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GamesBond
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Posts: 430

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#6 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:52 pm

MoltenCoreMoshpit wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 pm
the original design of mythic is being lost over time to constant meddling. Uncapped aoe was not in live and it has a major impact on how the game is played
« A » Return of Reckoning is NOT Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.

Spoiler:
We are not Mythic, nor are we EA or GOA, or any other company that ran the game during it's live period. We do not have the server resources, codebase, or databases from the live service that was previously run by them. This is a volunteer, free to all, fan-based project, to recreate a game that closed down forever in 2013. While we are incredibly huge and dedicated fans of Warhammer Online, and played throughout all of it's years, we will never be the same as what came before us.
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ToU: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13607
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catholicism198
Posts: 1077

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#7 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:14 am

GamesBond wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:52 pm
MoltenCoreMoshpit wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 pm
the original design of mythic is being lost over time to constant meddling. Uncapped aoe was not in live and it has a major impact on how the game is played
« A » Return of Reckoning is NOT Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.

Spoiler:
We are not Mythic, nor are we EA or GOA, or any other company that ran the game during it's live period. We do not have the server resources, codebase, or databases from the live service that was previously run by them. This is a volunteer, free to all, fan-based project, to recreate a game that closed down forever in 2013. While we are incredibly huge and dedicated fans of Warhammer Online, and played throughout all of it's years, we will never be the same as what came before us.
-
ToU: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13607
The game actually flip flops between “this is how it was on live” and “this isn’t live.”

That said, Live did and didn’t have aoe caps, just like it did and didn’t have aoe stacking caps.
Sweeping changes are ultimately made because of player behavior.
Skill caps would not have been removed if 100 players didn’t stack in one spot, just like morales wouldn’t have been nerfed if groups couldn’t delete war bands in an instant by morale bombing.
You can’t fault the devs for wanting to counter cheese play styles.

Alucard2010
Posts: 50

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#8 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:38 am

No reason to play a 2h knight in this current state. Zero. In any capacity, in any setting. S&B will be your new role in all settings.

Pre-MS Nerf:
1v1 - Generally lost to anything range since no gap closers, WEs were even battles (esp. if they got to initiate), Chosen 50/50, BO/BGs I won most of these fights, and choppas were easy stomps. Couldn't kill any healer, not enough burst, period.

6v6 - Meme build in SCs, Viable in ranked if your team was applying good pressure and the aggressor, otherwise it was difficult to apply the trifecta of dps pressure, guard swap, and utility (punts/snares/challenges) simultaneously if you were on the back foot. Not to mention it made life hell on your healers due to the increased 15% inc dmg and no focused mending tactic.

Cities - This is where I enjoyed the build most and think it fit into the game the best providing a fun alternative to an otherwise stale aura bot class. It paired well in the ST focus group as you could provide meaningful pressure to armor/toughness stacked healers w/ your ST dps. Couldn't be a part of the main melee aoe blob as knight parry wasn't enough mitigation (it's much lower than chosen's) and you would melt to AOE.

Forts/Keeps - meh, we stand around like most other 2h tanks in these and are always sub-optimal to full S&B tanks for HTL/pushes

Post-MS Nerf:
1v1 - Range same thing - no gap closer, you will die. WEs should still end up about even since their mostly beating themselves to death on suns blessing. Lose to all other tanks due to high mitigation of physical and knights inability to get meaning str/WS stats (no daemonclaw, no oppressing swing w/ conversion of myrm fury to elemental), Probably still stomp choppas if taunting channeling heal from choppa correctly.

6v6 - SCs: S&B guard mitigation (block/parry) + Focused Mending + Dirty tricks > 2h 10% overpowering swings crit buff + 2h parry guard mitigation
Don't even bother queuing in ranked since you have to have some amount of tank pressure there, knights wont have that any longer, and S&B is pure garbage in ranked due to 20s punt timer (instead of 10s from 2h).

Cities - High stacking of Armor/Toughness on healers makes the ST group no longer viable for the Knight since you hit like a wet noodle w/ full physical dmg now and you're better off taking WW SM and IB to buff your dps. Also still can't run 2h knights in the aoe bomb groups as you're just flat out BETTER in S&B for mitigation + focused mending + dirty tricks (5% crit r for group).

Forts/Keeps - meh, we stand around like most other 2h tanks in these and are always sub-optimal to full S&B tanks for HTL/pushes

These changes took the for "Fun" build away from the knight to meme in SCs and have some other niche in cities besides S&B guard aura bot.

-Beernpretzels 84 KOTBS Full BIS 2H Knight

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Steamhammer
Posts: 5

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#9 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:05 pm

Alucard2010 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:38 am
No reason to play a 2h knight in this current state. Zero. In any capacity, in any setting. S&B will be your new role in all settings.

Pre-MS Nerf:
1v1 - Generally lost to anything range since no gap closers, WEs were even battles (esp. if they got to initiate), Chosen 50/50, BO/BGs I won most of these fights, and choppas were easy stomps. Couldn't kill any healer, not enough burst, period.

6v6 - Meme build in SCs, Viable in ranked if your team was applying good pressure and the aggressor, otherwise it was difficult to apply the trifecta of dps pressure, guard swap, and utility (punts/snares/challenges) simultaneously if you were on the back foot. Not to mention it made life hell on your healers due to the increased 15% inc dmg and no focused mending tactic.

Cities - This is where I enjoyed the build most and think it fit into the game the best providing a fun alternative to an otherwise stale aura bot class. It paired well in the ST focus group as you could provide meaningful pressure to armor/toughness stacked healers w/ your ST dps. Couldn't be a part of the main melee aoe blob as knight parry wasn't enough mitigation (it's much lower than chosen's) and you would melt to AOE.

Forts/Keeps - meh, we stand around like most other 2h tanks in these and are always sub-optimal to full S&B tanks for HTL/pushes

Post-MS Nerf:
1v1 - Range same thing - no gap closer, you will die. WEs should still end up about even since their mostly beating themselves to death on suns blessing. Lose to all other tanks due to high mitigation of physical and knights inability to get meaning str/WS stats (no daemonclaw, no oppressing swing w/ conversion of myrm fury to elemental), Probably still stomp choppas if taunting channeling heal from choppa correctly.

6v6 - SCs: S&B guard mitigation (block/parry) + Focused Mending + Dirty tricks > 2h 10% overpowering swings crit buff + 2h parry guard mitigation
Don't even bother queuing in ranked since you have to have some amount of tank pressure there, knights wont have that any longer, and S&B is pure garbage in ranked due to 20s punt timer (instead of 10s from 2h).

Cities - High stacking of Armor/Toughness on healers makes the ST group no longer viable for the Knight since you hit like a wet noodle w/ full physical dmg now and you're better off taking WW SM and IB to buff your dps. Also still can't run 2h knights in the aoe bomb groups as you're just flat out BETTER in S&B for mitigation + focused mending + dirty tricks (5% crit r for group).

Forts/Keeps - meh, we stand around like most other 2h tanks in these and are always sub-optimal to full S&B tanks for HTL/pushes

These changes took the for "Fun" build away from the knight to meme in SCs and have some other niche in cities besides S&B guard aura bot.

-Beernpretzels 84 KOTBS Full BIS 2H Knight


As a RR 61 2H without Sov/wl BIS gear, you pretty much loose against all odds period, even pre nurf it was a hell on earth trying to 1v1 or squeeze out just a little burst. The only thing that kept me up, was the perspective to grind up to Sov and then finally be a little more than a meme to the community.

Well and now? i basicly run around hitting like a wet noodle on Armor Meta and loosing ALL 1v1´s thank you....
I will consider coming back to the Game after 2h Tree is viable again.

Sirdarion, a proud but dead 2h Kight of the Blazing Sun

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Detangler
Posts: 439

Re: Mighty soul alternatives? Chosen and Kotbs imblance

Post#10 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:14 pm

Welp, guess that settles it on whether I'll be back someday. Nothing like a sweeping change to a class with no rhyme or reason to completely gut my spec and choices for why i picked certain sov/warlord pieces to maximize certain stats and gimping others. GG devs, it was fun. 2h chosens had better options than DW for pumping out spirit damage, and i'm pretty sure i was the only moron sword and board DPS chosen runnin around with DW on this server, unless there's been a slew of new like-minded morons these past few months while i've been away.
Detangler - 40 DoK armor talisman farmer
Deetangler - 40/82 Chosen tankbot/murdermachine
Deeetangler - 40/6x Zealot healbot/talisman factory
Tanglers - baby Swordmaster
Other 40's w similar names.
On hiatus. ETA unknown

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