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detrap
Posts: 145
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#191 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 am

Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:38 am
So 19 pages later and you are still arguing about how 2h tanks had better survivability than snb. Think its time to move on and change topic a bit.
Keep it up with the misquotations. Thank you for the discussion.
Knight - WP - Engie - BW

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nocturnalguest
Posts: 190

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#192 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:15 pm

detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
Combat logs don't lie mate.
It has nothing to do with what we discuss. You just type words, argue for the sake of arguing.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
I was the one of a few to have tested the use a defensive 2H SM
You definitely were not, everyone and their grandma has been stacking avoidance on 2h tanks, some BG's even brought it to the point they had more or less similar stats as snb tanks.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
None of the other order tanks came close to surviving as effectively. They'd have to use abilities with a cooldown to beat it. Also FYI you get 200% block with shield wall and 800% with oathstone.
What?! How is it connected to the topic at all? What has shield wall or oathstone to do with hardcaps?
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
It has been like that for many months.
God dammit... Yes, exactly. MONTHS! You talk about months but you have been told not about months but years for christ sake... Years of things being actually balanced.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
If a 2H tank has issues now with dodge/disrupt, yell at a snb tanks Infront of you to HTL more. Easy teamwork.
It looks like you totally dont understand that. You dont see the issue due to what? Is it lack of experience in competetive environemnt, lack of knowledge? I dont get it. Its not about htl or teamwork. Its about overall ttk (time to kill). TTK has been significantly tweaked for unknown reason cause changes were done - nerf to aoe hd, nerf to morale. Before those nerfs tanks has been resilent. Atm they not but ttk is high. There is no reasoning to explain why is it needed. There is no reasoning to justify why now rock is countered with scissors. Because there is no grand scheme, there is no big plan.
And things are actually connected.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
At least I'm not the one making constant half baked personal remarks towards people as a means of having a healthy open discussion.
Im doing those remarks only towards you. Because its you who is actually blocking any kind of healthy open discussion. You dont listen to what people here tell you (and i doubt you actually even read what people write here), cherrypick insignificant info, rephrase your own claims changing the basics of what you say and on top of that dodge the exact counter arguments people are pointing you to.
What is wrong with that? You create the view that there are few different opinions on the matter, justifying the unneeded change.
Yet again, it is a way of course. But to my taste the wrong one.

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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#193 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm

nocturnalguest wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:15 pm
Spoiler:
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
Combat logs don't lie mate.
It has nothing to do with what we discuss. You just type words, argue for the sake of arguing.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
I was the one of a few to have tested the use a defensive 2H SM
You definitely were not, everyone and their grandma has been stacking avoidance on 2h tanks, some BG's even brought it to the point they had more or less similar stats as snb tanks.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
None of the other order tanks came close to surviving as effectively. They'd have to use abilities with a cooldown to beat it. Also FYI you get 200% block with shield wall and 800% with oathstone.
What?! How is it connected to the topic at all? What has shield wall or oathstone to do with hardcaps?
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
It has been like that for many months.
God dammit... Yes, exactly. MONTHS! You talk about months but you have been told not about months but years for christ sake... Years of things being actually balanced.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
If a 2H tank has issues now with dodge/disrupt, yell at a snb tanks Infront of you to HTL more. Easy teamwork.
It looks like you totally dont understand that. You dont see the issue due to what? Is it lack of experience in competetive environemnt, lack of knowledge? I dont get it. Its not about htl or teamwork. Its about overall ttk (time to kill). TTK has been significantly tweaked for unknown reason cause changes were done - nerf to aoe hd, nerf to morale. Before those nerfs tanks has been resilent. Atm they not but ttk is high. There is no reasoning to explain why is it needed. There is no reasoning to justify why now rock is countered with scissors. Because there is no grand scheme, there is no big plan.
And things are actually connected.
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 am
At least I'm not the one making constant half baked personal remarks towards people as a means of having a healthy open discussion.
Im doing those remarks only towards you. Because its you who is actually blocking any kind of healthy open discussion. You dont listen to what people here tell you (and i doubt you actually even read what people write here), cherrypick insignificant info, rephrase your own claims changing the basics of what you say and on top of that dodge the exact counter arguments people are pointing you to.
What is wrong with that? You create the view that there are few different opinions on the matter, justifying the unneeded change.
Yet again, it is a way of course. But to my taste the wrong one.


It has nothing to do with what we discuss. You just type words, argue for the sake of arguing.

Only screenie from May last year I could find from months ago, SM probably 75-80% parry, not sure was in conq at the time https://imgur.com/ggFU3cj, clear example of how any tank with particularly high parry was good enough to survive guard damage in a city warband as a 2H.

You definitely were not, everyone and their grandma has been stacking avoidance on 2h tanks, some BG's even brought it to the point they had more or less similar stats as snb tanks.

The only other 2H SM I would see face tank doorways in Forts was Chinesehero and he wasn't even Vaul spec. With BG's they were easily more tankier prepatch and get away with going 2h in the blob train and survive just as well from all the guard damage as their snb team mates.

It looks like you totally dont understand that. You dont see the issue due to what? Is it lack of experience in competetive environemnt, lack of knowledge? I dont get it. Its not about htl or teamwork.

End game is about competitive environments and team work and it's created more of a reliance others to get the work done. I've tested this build on my SM in cities and I know 2H IB's were also doing fine guarding mdps with 60+ parry.

I'm sharing my opinions based on experience of doing cities for almost a year. This patch was needed, but if you manage to convince people enough that it needs to be changed back, I definitely won't complain :) If you can dig up any more data from other peoples posts to share, I'm always interested to learn more about the classes I enjoy playing.
Last edited by detrap on Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Knight - WP - Engie - BW

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sharpblader
Posts: 46

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#194 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm

detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am
ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 am
detrap wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:41 pm


There's no argument. I only have parry stacking gear on my SM, and I'd gladly show you my combat logs of how I eat melee guard damage via parry better than a snb tank would. Then you can factor in this is what is was like before guard changes was patched. I might even be able to dig up some old screenshots also. A snb tank in full defensive sov wouldn't come close.
You are quite persistent about wods being an issue. Maybe wods should be looked at if you feel so strongly. Other 2h tanks such as kobs really suffer now having no way or very little to get dodge disrupt and parry all above 40%. You can’t possibly believe knights deserve that just because sm has it good. But honestly sm sacrifices damage to channel wods so it still evens out IMO. Eating guard damage is the class mechanic 2h or not. In literally no universe was 2h avoiding more guard damage or even close to snb with exception to maybe sm in low gear vs snb. You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry on block so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? Not on your life man.
Wods doesn't need looking at because it's the equivalent to the BO block channel, each with their pros and cons. Guard damage has been a nerf for every 2H tank, not just the knight. Wods is a means to reduce guard damage when under pressure. An SM didn't need sov/warlord/invader to out shine any snb tank apart from the BO when it came avoiding guard damage pre patch.

You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? As I've said...In warband vs warband city fights, 2H tanks were surviving just as well or better (SM was a great example of explaining the reasoning behind parry and guard damage) than most snb tanks. Please read over my previous comments.


"You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage?"

Omg omg! Sorry I had to come back here to highlight the irony in this statement.

Look up Chosen tactic Mixed Defenses.

kthnxbye

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detrap
Posts: 145
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#195 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:45 pm

sharpblader wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am
ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 am


You are quite persistent about wods being an issue. Maybe wods should be looked at if you feel so strongly. Other 2h tanks such as kobs really suffer now having no way or very little to get dodge disrupt and parry all above 40%. You can’t possibly believe knights deserve that just because sm has it good. But honestly sm sacrifices damage to channel wods so it still evens out IMO. Eating guard damage is the class mechanic 2h or not. In literally no universe was 2h avoiding more guard damage or even close to snb with exception to maybe sm in low gear vs snb. You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry on block so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? Not on your life man.
Wods doesn't need looking at because it's the equivalent to the BO block channel, each with their pros and cons. Guard damage has been a nerf for every 2H tank, not just the knight. Wods is a means to reduce guard damage when under pressure. An SM didn't need sov/warlord/invader to out shine any snb tank apart from the BO when it came avoiding guard damage pre patch.

You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? As I've said...In warband vs warband city fights, 2H tanks were surviving just as well or better (SM was a great example of explaining the reasoning behind parry and guard damage) than most snb tanks. Please read over my previous comments.


"You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage?"

Omg omg! Sorry I had to come back here to highlight the irony in this statement.

Look up Chosen tactic Mixed Defenses.

kthnxbye
If you actually read the quote they wrote, I was just quoting them in the sentence. kthxbye?
Knight - WP - Engie - BW

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bealmador
Posts: 5

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#196 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:07 pm

detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:45 pm
sharpblader wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am


Wods doesn't need looking at because it's the equivalent to the BO block channel, each with their pros and cons. Guard damage has been a nerf for every 2H tank, not just the knight. Wods is a means to reduce guard damage when under pressure. An SM didn't need sov/warlord/invader to out shine any snb tank apart from the BO when it came avoiding guard damage pre patch.

You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? As I've said...In warband vs warband city fights, 2H tanks were surviving just as well or better (SM was a great example of explaining the reasoning behind parry and guard damage) than most snb tanks. Please read over my previous comments.


"You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage?"

Omg omg! Sorry I had to come back here to highlight the irony in this statement.

Look up Chosen tactic Mixed Defenses.

kthnxbye
If you actually read the quote they wrote, I was just quoting them in the sentence. kthxbye?
Well if you quote someone maybe don't change the actual quote and start using quotation marks and then people might actually know that you are quoting someone. SnB chosen can get 25% parry from suppression and 25% from mixed defenses btw (they stack) something that 2h chosen has no access to.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 190

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#197 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:22 pm

@detrap huh, mate i guess you should actually word your claims much better (and accurate) on this thread since the start.
how any tank with particularly high parry was good enough to survive guard damage in a city warband as a 2H.
Yes, true. Nobody argue with this statement.
The only other 2H SM I would see face tank doorways in Forts was Chinesehero and he wasn't even Vaul spec.
Oh lol, if by "i was one of the few defensive 2h SM" you mean exactly that :D its still not true tho, but easily explained by the fact that face tanking doorways in Forts as 2h SM is suboptimal. It's like playing slayer in warbands in full oppressor, defensive sc weapons and stuff. Possible? Yeah. Effective? No, suboptimal at best. So its no wonder there were low amount of defensive 2h SM's as their SnB build works great (what BG's cant tell about theirs)
It doesn't change the fact that high toughness high avoidance 2h kotbs in same situation would have instantly blow up. No. It would do just fine (of course supported by his group). And there are (and were) a lot of defensive 2h kotbs (missing Dill... crazy mfker he was :( ). Those who main kotbs may even think of Vigilance pre nerf (another mad change with 0 reasoning behind it).
IBs have been doing that with lifesteal proc from c&t weapon and full bloodlord (and many other options). There are a lot of defensive 2h IBs running around for no apparant reason as they have no actual role as 2h in warbands (and, again, no, assist dmg is not a "role").
Not even mentioning chosen and BO cause its kinda obvious in their case.
With BG's they were easily more tankier prepatch and get away with going 2h in the blob train and survive just as well from all the guard damage as their snb team mates.
Partly true, till you mention snb. Their snb version is arguable best turtle tank (stone/brotherhood ib in sov+2 may compete, its so boring and dumb that im not into figuring actual data here. its special olympics), and of no competition to their 2h spec. SnB BG in terms of raw overall survivability > 2h BG big time.
End game is about competitive environments and team work and it's created more of a reliance others to get the work done. I've tested this build on my SM in cities and I know 2H IB's were also doing fine guarding mdps with 60+ parry.
I'm sharing my opinions based on experience of doing cities for almost a year. This patch was needed, but if you manage to convince people enough that it needs to be changed back, I definitely won't complain :)
You dont actually share anything, people asked you what is your rr and stuff, you dodge. I dont care about that, but its not looking like you share your opinion. Also, everyone here are doing cities for 1 year. Even top groups are kinda forced to be taking ppl from /5 (and filter them in long run so if you'd claim i played in X warband it still means nothing), so unless you are in tight core roster of few top groups (and you most likely not, cause we would all know your name then) it matters not. So overall most likely that your experience is same or lower than the rest of guys posting here. And this lead to my previous question. What do you try to achieve arguing with us so hard? "You'd also be cool if change would be reverted, but overall you feel that its ok, tanks should be taking more dmg"?
And i say wrong on "needed" part. It was not actually needed. As i've told you before the only reason was Yali's feelings about how logical it is to "parry" fireballs (and i even linked you that particular post). In grand scheme of things it was not justified by anything at that moment unless The plan is to be screwing up whole battle system in this game (as a small part of this plan).
Well, i show support to OP, forum is not a proper way to convince anyone anyway. Topics like this is very crucial to influence people tho, knowledge and understanding are spread wider, i hope more will be understanding the issue here.
If you can dig up any more data from other peoples posts to share, I'm always interested to learn more about the classes I enjoy playing.
Easy. There you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=879#p9284
All of that is still valid beside toughness and absorb order in calc. New order is posted somewhere by dalen.

Since my first talk here with you - pick your words better mate, no offense, but things you say are triggering very much as they are sometimes a mix of contradictory, inconsistent claims, some made up delusional stuff with okaish understanding of game mechanics (and you actually got us with avoidance caps) and some dodgy statements on top. Please dont do that.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 747

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#198 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:15 pm

DiMakss wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:56 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:30 pm
2H tank "guards" are more commonly known as corpses
snb guards are more commonly known as guard-bots or usless slots (for ranked and common sc, for example)
Hey look this guy did 100k dmg on his 2h BG in a ranked, scen, the spec is saved!

Guard-bots that know how to punt are always crucial. I would take a tank with good cc regardless of their weapon over a DPS hero any day.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/75) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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detrap
Posts: 145
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#199 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:13 pm

Spoiler:
nocturnalguest wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:22 pm
@detrap huh, mate i guess you should actually word your claims much better (and accurate) on this thread since the start.
how any tank with particularly high parry was good enough to survive guard damage in a city warband as a 2H.
Yes, true. Nobody argue with this statement.
The only other 2H SM I would see face tank doorways in Forts was Chinesehero and he wasn't even Vaul spec.
Oh lol, if by "i was one of the few defensive 2h SM" you mean exactly that :D its still not true tho, but easily explained by the fact that face tanking doorways in Forts as 2h SM is suboptimal. It's like playing slayer in warbands in full oppressor, defensive sc weapons and stuff. Possible? Yeah. Effective? No, suboptimal at best. So its no wonder there were low amount of defensive 2h SM's as their SnB build works great (what BG's cant tell about theirs)
It doesn't change the fact that high toughness high avoidance 2h kotbs in same situation would have instantly blow up. No. It would do just fine (of course supported by his group). And there are (and were) a lot of defensive 2h kotbs (missing Dill... crazy mfker he was :( ). Those who main kotbs may even think of Vigilance pre nerf (another mad change with 0 reasoning behind it).
IBs have been doing that with lifesteal proc from c&t weapon and full bloodlord (and many other options). There are a lot of defensive 2h IBs running around for no apparant reason as they have no actual role as 2h in warbands (and, again, no, assist dmg is not a "role").
Not even mentioning chosen and BO cause its kinda obvious in their case.
With BG's they were easily more tankier prepatch and get away with going 2h in the blob train and survive just as well from all the guard damage as their snb team mates.
Partly true, till you mention snb. Their snb version is arguable best turtle tank (stone/brotherhood ib in sov+2 may compete, its so boring and dumb that im not into figuring actual data here. its special olympics), and of no competition to their 2h spec. SnB BG in terms of raw overall survivability > 2h BG big time.
End game is about competitive environments and team work and it's created more of a reliance others to get the work done. I've tested this build on my SM in cities and I know 2H IB's were also doing fine guarding mdps with 60+ parry.
I'm sharing my opinions based on experience of doing cities for almost a year. This patch was needed, but if you manage to convince people enough that it needs to be changed back, I definitely won't complain :)
You dont actually share anything, people asked you what is your rr and stuff, you dodge. I dont care about that, but its not looking like you share your opinion. Also, everyone here are doing cities for 1 year. Even top groups are kinda forced to be taking ppl from /5 (and filter them in long run so if you'd claim i played in X warband it still means nothing), so unless you are in tight core roster of few top groups (and you most likely not, cause we would all know your name then) it matters not. So overall most likely that your experience is same or lower than the rest of guys posting here. And this lead to my previous question. What do you try to achieve arguing with us so hard? "You'd also be cool if change would be reverted, but overall you feel that its ok, tanks should be taking more dmg"?
And i say wrong on "needed" part. It was not actually needed. As i've told you before the only reason was Yali's feelings about how logical it is to "parry" fireballs (and i even linked you that particular post). In grand scheme of things it was not justified by anything at that moment unless The plan is to be screwing up whole battle system in this game (as a small part of this plan).
Well, i show support to OP, forum is not a proper way to convince anyone anyway. Topics like this is very crucial to influence people tho, knowledge and understanding are spread wider, i hope more will be understanding the issue here.
If you can dig up any more data from other peoples posts to share, I'm always interested to learn more about the classes I enjoy playing.
Easy. There you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=879#p9284
All of that is still valid beside toughness and absorb order in calc. New order is posted somewhere by dalen.

Since my first talk here with you - pick your words better mate, no offense, but things you say are triggering very much as they are sometimes a mix of contradictory, inconsistent claims, some made up delusional stuff with okaish understanding of game mechanics (and you actually got us with avoidance caps) and some dodgy statements on top. Please dont do that.

mate i guess you should actually word your claims much better (and accurate) on this thread since the start.

High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks, even better in the case of the SM, how is that not simple enough to understand?

Yes, true. Nobody argue with this statement.

You are joking?

Oh lol, if by "i was one of the few defensive 2h SM" you mean exactly that :D its still not true tho, but easily explained by the fact that face tanking doorways in Forts as 2h SM is suboptimal.

Very wrong. Maybe you have also tested having 90% plus avoidances in funnels with a 2H?

It doesn't change the fact that high toughness high avoidance 2h kotbs in same situation would have instantly blow up.

Because they aren't a class that's designed to perform as well in that situation. They bring very powerful offensive AoE debuffs to warrant not having SM-like survivability. They can't buff their own defenses like the BG can, but maybe that's why knights have a superior M1 and M2 to help them survive?

There are a lot of defensive 2h IBs running around for no apparant reason as they have no actual role as 2h in warbands (and, again, no, assist dmg is not a "role")

IB's with high parry in 2H were easily getting 10+ DB's in cities when guarding squishy team mates. They can still have the best burst damage for order tanks in such a build.

You dont actually share anything, people asked you what is you

Unfortunately I don't have old combat logs other than the SM's. Also realise this post is about how much of an issue being squishier to guard damage now with 2H than before. One can simply figure it out that it wasn't as big an issue prepatch, further supporting my claims 2H tanks were just fine with handling guard damage in city fights.

Since my first talk here with you - pick your words better mate, no offense, but things you say are triggering

High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks, even better in the case of the SM...How is that triggering?
Knight - WP - Engie - BW

ashton007
Posts: 201

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#200 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:58 pm

sharpblader wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am
ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 am


You are quite persistent about wods being an issue. Maybe wods should be looked at if you feel so strongly. Other 2h tanks such as kobs really suffer now having no way or very little to get dodge disrupt and parry all above 40%. You can’t possibly believe knights deserve that just because sm has it good. But honestly sm sacrifices damage to channel wods so it still evens out IMO. Eating guard damage is the class mechanic 2h or not. In literally no universe was 2h avoiding more guard damage or even close to snb with exception to maybe sm in low gear vs snb. You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry on block so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? Not on your life man.
Wods doesn't need looking at because it's the equivalent to the BO block channel, each with their pros and cons. Guard damage has been a nerf for every 2H tank, not just the knight. Wods is a means to reduce guard damage when under pressure. An SM didn't need sov/warlord/invader to out shine any snb tank apart from the BO when it came avoiding guard damage pre patch.

You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? As I've said...In warband vs warband city fights, 2H tanks were surviving just as well or better (SM was a great example of explaining the reasoning behind parry and guard damage) than most snb tanks. Please read over my previous comments.


"You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage?"

Omg omg! Sorry I had to come back here to highlight the irony in this statement.

Look up Chosen tactic Mixed Defenses.

kthnxbye
Yeah u fool for SNB chosen that is 50% parry. Not including the block %. Your argument that 2h can survive as well as snb is false.

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