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Ninjagon
Posts: 198

Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#1 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:05 pm

I have tested my play against Trivial Blows with my end game high crit Bright Wizard.
The difference between who has TB spec and who has not is HUGE. It is a big nerf to any crit spec character, but it hurt the most BW/Sorc class mechanic.
Situation in WB play is no better. For single target group it is harder to kill any target and it needs more time. Healers are gods now because there is no high burst anymore, except morale drops. Melee death balls are still meta and stronger than before (because you cant kill healers fast enough).

Suggestion: Tone TB significantly down or remove it completely.
Ninjagon - Bright Wizard from Bene Tleilax. No destruction character. My warband build
Alts: Velmires, Carnow
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xyeppp
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Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#2 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:27 pm

Ninjagon wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:05 pm
I have tested my play against Trivial Blows with my end game high crit Bright Wizard.
The difference between who has TB spec and who has not is HUGE. It is a big nerf to any crit spec character, but it hurt the most BW/Sorc class mechanic.
Situation in WB play is no better. For single target group it is harder to kill any target and it needs more time. Healers are gods now because there is no high burst anymore, except morale drops. Melee death balls are still meta and stronger than before (because you cant kill healers fast enough).

Suggestion: Tone TB significantly down or remove it completely.
Can you provide some hard data and numbers from your test or is HUGE the only thing we need to know?
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jughurta69
Posts: 110

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#3 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:36 pm

si quelqu'un peu traduire

Les spe burst sans element defensif sont encore plus penalisé , deja elle sont plus dure a jouer car demande une autre lecture que les spe tanky qui peuvent inc et prendre place au combat en faisant beaucoup moins attention a son positionnement etc..

la possibilité de diminuer par des passif est trop problematique et prejudiciable.
Pourquoi pas un buff de quelques secondes sur long CD , voir une moral 3 sur 8s ou 10s


WE/WH avec en moyenne 35% et un tactic degats crit pour accentué le burst en gros vous leur dites ben désolé pour vous . Vous etes deja fragile , en positionnel mais en plus vos crit ne feront plus rien ...

tomato
Posts: 381

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#4 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:16 pm

xyeppp wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:27 pm
Can you provide some hard data and numbers from your test or is HUGE the only thing we need to know?
There is no need for testing this, it can be easily calculated. Assuming full TB:

Sorc/BW with Sov, average bonus critical damage at 100 mechanic points: 160% (45% base + 100% mechanic + 15% Sov bonus)
When the target has full TB: 160%*0.6=96% -> bonus critical dmg is 64% less

Example for a fireball/doombolt, assuming a base dmg of 1000. For critical hits:
Damage on target without TB: 2600
Damage on target with TB: 1960

This is a damage reduction of around 25%.

So if everything in your rotation crits, which with BiS gear tends to happen quit often, you lose 25% damage on your rotation.

TB is basically killing those two classes for all but pug farming.

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Rydiak
Posts: 545

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#5 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:27 pm

A class that, through its mechanic, could essentially critically hit every attack (even with the target being specced deeply into Futile Strikes) suddenly has counter-play through 45 points of renown point investment. And 45 points of renown for around a 25% damage reduction on critical hits only doesn't sound too extreme of a reduction to me, because that is 45 points of renown that aren't spent on anything else. Sorcs/BWs aren't the only DPS classes in this game, and anyone averaging under 50% crit rate will still be affected more by Futile Strikes anyways (because this version of Trivial Blows was reduced in effectiveness compared to Live values). So if someone wants to spend 45 points of renown to only affect full-class mechanic Sorcs/BWs then they will be severely weakened against all the other DPS compared to if they specced into Futile Strikes.
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

Interested in Grace, but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

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Updated 03/19/21 - Now supports -crit damage bonus

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tomato
Posts: 381

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#6 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:53 pm

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:27 pm
A class that, through its mechanic, could essentially critically hit every attack (even with the target being specced deeply into Futile Strikes) suddenly has counter-play through 45 points of renown point investment. And 45 points of renown for around a 25% damage reduction on critical hits only doesn't sound too extreme of a reduction to me, because that is 45 points of renown that aren't spent on anything else. Sorcs/BWs aren't the only DPS classes in this game, and anyone averaging under 50% crit rate will still be affected more by Futile Strikes anyways (because this version of Trivial Blows was reduced in effectiveness compared to Live values). So if someone wants to spend 45 points of renown to only affect full-class mechanic Sorcs/BWs then they will be severely weakened against all the other DPS compared to if they specced into Futile Strikes.
There already was lots of counterplay towards sorc/bw, if you haven't realized that as warrior priest main, that's worrying.

BiS mdps usually have around 45% crit chance (with possible additional +10% from tank buffs, meaning 55% in total), so no, FS is not better as TB against high end dps players.
Saying that full TB makes you severly weakend against other dps classes is therefore completely wrong.
All dps classes with crit damage tactic are affected significantly.

The classes least affected by TB are the ones without crit damage tactics, e.g. Slayer, Msh, RSW, Magus, Engi.

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Rydiak
Posts: 545

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#7 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:57 pm

Thanks for the ad hominem response. Very engaging for discussion.
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

Interested in Grace, but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

Try my Google Sheets-based RoR Damage Calculator!
Updated 03/19/21 - Now supports -crit damage bonus

Bonus RoR Calculations

tomato
Posts: 381

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#8 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:05 pm

If you use anecdotal evidence to support your arguments, don't expect an engaging discussion.

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Detangler
Posts: 537

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#9 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:27 pm
A class that, through its mechanic, could essentially critically hit every attack (even with the target being specced deeply into Futile Strikes) suddenly has counter-play through 45 points of renown point investment. And 45 points of renown for around a 25% damage reduction on critical hits only doesn't sound too extreme of a reduction to me, because that is 45 points of renown that aren't spent on anything else. Sorcs/BWs aren't the only DPS classes in this game, and anyone averaging under 50% crit rate will still be affected more by Futile Strikes anyways (because this version of Trivial Blows was reduced in effectiveness compared to Live values). So if someone wants to spend 45 points of renown to only affect full-class mechanic Sorcs/BWs then they will be severely weakened against all the other DPS compared to if they specced into Futile Strikes.
Truth right here. 45 points is a hefty investment that could be spent elsewhere to up dodge/disrupt, reduce chance to be crit, or increase healing/damage.

OP needs to take a step back and look at the sacrifices made to make TB noticeable.
Detangler and alts - 83 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE
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geezereur
Posts: 453

Re: Trivial Blows Feedback

Post#10 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:31 pm

Ninjagon wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:05 pm
I have tested my play against Trivial Blows with my end game high crit Bright Wizard.
The difference between who has TB spec and who has not is HUGE. It is a big nerf to any crit spec character, but it hurt the most BW/Sorc class mechanic.
Situation in WB play is no better. For single target group it is harder to kill any target and it needs more time. Healers are gods now because there is no high burst anymore, except morale drops. Melee death balls are still meta and stronger than before (because you cant kill healers fast enough).

Suggestion: Tone TB significantly down or remove it completely.
This makes me not wanna log in anymore sadface, TB was broken live and its broken here.

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