blechkautz wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:22 pm
You should maybe start reading the IB skill descriptions, befor you post false statments:
1. False. Bg gets hat on hitting, IB not. That's a big difference.
2. Crimson Death is a debuff, not a buff. And Bg has several dbuffs for his grp like aoe snare, parry/block debuff or wounds debuff. The second part of the stament idk what else you want besides the best punt, the best kd, the best armor debuff among tanks (mara/wl is better but you said tanks) etc. for the sub points
a) I have never seen an IB use that tactic and i wouldn't recommend anybody using that tactic unless you run 2IBs where you can think about it. On the other hand, the bg toughness buff also heals him and his Dark Protector and cost ap instead of grudges, but sure they are the same abilities.
b) Sm has to use one of for tactic slots to turn an otherwise completly useless ability (in pvp) into something slightly better tahn the core ib/bg stuff, sounds ok or even bad for the sm.
c) I don't know why you would compare an aoe ability with lower base dmg and a 10s cooldown to a spammable singletarget ability. Seems pretty pointless to compare if you ask me.
d) Ok Ib can also have up to 30% parry buff if you invest 18 mastery points and use your buff every 10s which ends up giving your OF also 25% parry, while BG get's 30% parry (if you have hate problems on Bg i don't know how to help you) for 8 mastery points.
3. Maybe tell us how ib can provide a better punt than the bg or provide +10% crit for everybody you hit with crimson or provide a toughness debuff or an ap drain or an stacking armorbuff with -45% chance to be crit? Sure Ib has it's own stuff but that statement is just wrong.
4. No comment for the first part, but claiming ib is overperforming compared to bg isn't something i'd say.
I have read the descriptions of both in depth, I play both classes actually. My BG is 80RR and my IB is 64, I only play the BG for looks, the IB is VASTLY superior to the BG by a huge amount, so why would I handicap myself?
1. It's not false at all. You're a tank, you will spend most of the time holding the line and absorbing damage in the frontline, not chasing people around, at any moment the battle starts you'll be 100 hate/100 grudge at all times. Unless you go solo roaming, but that's another story and again, it's an anecdote if you solo roam as a tank.
2.KotBS has a crimson death equivalent, and an almost identical punt, while still being extremely useful for the entirety of the WB and more tanky... but back to the point...Crimson death is at the moment the only reason BG is taken into wb's. And remember crimson death is 2h mandatory, not SnB. Yes BG has one AoE snare with a 20s Cooldown, in the Loathing tree, requires 10 POINTS. IB has a 10s CD AoE that ignores armor based off grudge, knocksback and snares for the same duration, meaning it's a 100% uptime if you keep reapplying it, it's on the path of vengeance and only requires 8 points. How can you claim this is equal or that the IB doesn't have the upper hand?
·The best punt in the game, is extremely arguable (KotBS has about the same if not the exact same punt distance). The best KD? Sure, but what's the cooldown and the requirement of said KD? You know you just can't run in and use it right? You must have blocked and you need to be at 100 hate to make it the best KD in the game. At 0 hate is actually one of the worst KD in the game (2s), and remember that first you need to block.
·The armor debuff? IB has a 660 armor tactic, IB also has the guarded attack skill as a base skill for the third tree, giving 618 armor at rank 0 for the IB and the oathfriend, it scales with mastery points up to the same as the last ability on the loathing tree of the BG. I repeat, last ability of a tree vs a base one. The reduced chance to be crit is good indeed, but as good as to justify being the last skill of a SnB tree while IB has an identical base one without the crit reduction, for lower cooldown? Oh wait, I mean NO COOLDOWN (20s CD Force of fury vs NO CD Guarded attack).
a) Again a mixed answer, one is an anecdote, claiming that some use or not use the tactic, which isn't a point, just an anecdote. The second part however is just ridiculous. You know that is a "heal" based on damage dealt right? This means that if you're lucky you can heal for 100 hp at max hate, if you're lucky, and remember it only works on yourself and your guarded friend. Whereas IB gets 120 toughness at max skill points for himself and to everyone 20ft around the guarded friend, if tactic used. What group utility does SnB BG have, again?
b) Again anecdotes. If someone wants to spend the tactic or not it's their problem, the point is that a tactic is superior to a core ability of the supposed "master debuffer" class.
c)Of course I compare them, because they are the equivalent of each other. Spamable? right for 40AP, on a single target with no other benefit than ignoring 25% armor. Whereas IB gets an AoE snare, a KB/KD and can ignore up to 100% armor deppending on grudge, the later being permanent while the first two requiring the tactic.
blechkautz wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:22 pm
d)Ok Ib can also have up to 30% parry buff if you invest 18 mastery points and use your buff every 10s which ends up
giving your OF also 25% parry, while BG get's 30% parry (if you have hate problems on Bg i don't know how to help you) for 8 mastery points.
The important point here is at: "giving your OF also 25% parry". The BG gives NOTHING. It's all for himself, IB gets the same amount for himself and also 25% on the OF, I know IB only players don't see the difference, but there is a big one here, again it's called utility.
3. IB doesn't need any of that because IB has already better group utility to offer. In fact, as I have said, It has so much things to offer that some "famous" IB has made a blog arguing that it's difficult to keep everything up. Instead of acknowledging that this is an overperfoming class, it is being suggested on other threads to merge skills so IB can still be as useful but at 100% uptime. And once more, when you take into account the WB play, a BG is an absolutely useless tank for a wb, especially if it's SnB. A chosen will be much more useful, a BO despite the "nerfs" will still be more useful than a SnB BG. One 2h BG per 24 man warband is already more than enough, and all you will do is spam crimson death, because everything else will get bypassed by order buffs, effectively nullifying your debuffs.
4. I also know what the solution is here, it's to keep playing the IB, because once you have played both, why would you purposedly handicap yourself? Aside from looking cool with a polearm and a spiky armor, IB is vastly superior to BG in all the three talent options by a huge margin, so why would I go back to play my BG? If anything I would make a chosen or a BO on destro, SnB BG is almost useless and it's not even an exageration.
I personally think, and I genuinely belive that BG needs a few tweaks, not necessarily "buffs", but tweaks, minor adjustments, a few things here and there.
I don't even know why I waste my time writting those essays, there's a huge problem involving lack of self reflection coming from mainly order players, but also a lack of interest/voice from destro side which is either the "LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE!" fearing more nerfs or just straight up not giving a flying **** and just re-rolling order like in example I have done. But it's all alright as long as we can keep doing PvD for 1 star IC's and succesfully defending 99% of the forts even with AAO as high as 60% (because there's a balance between tanks in both factions, right?) things are okay, nothing to discuss.