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[Bolster] stats increase from buffs

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Justina
Posts: 48

[Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#1 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:52 pm

I have noticed this behavior:

When I drink a potion, then I get the flat amount of the potion and the bolster does not increase it further. Which seems right.

However, when I get a buff from knight/chosen aura or a AM/shaman buff then the bolster will increase that buff even further. Which doesn't seem right.

You can put for example the shammy spec hot with the tough buff on a lowbie and he will get the 200 from the buff itself and then the bolster will increase it even more. That hot can give 400-500 tough to a lowbie. That seems "a bit" much since you can put toughness talis in your armor and can easily reach 800-1000 tough this way.

I think that should be looked at.

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Fenris78
Posts: 331

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#2 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:24 pm

Stats at lower levels are almost all softcapped to a fixed value, ie you cant go over (25 * level)+50 in every main stat.

Additionally, most of your stats when bolstered will become softcapped ; so when you start getting other buffs, you'll only get half of the value at best (magic resistances are divided by 3 over the sofcap).

So the 400 toughness bonus you take as example is most probably only netting 200 since your bolstered "base" toughness is probably capped or close to the cap (you can check on character, nearly every main stat should be orange without buffs, saving some like wounds).

I think this mechanic is to avoid penalizing the "real" value of buffs from higher level characters.

Justina
Posts: 48

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#3 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:17 am

Fenris78 wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:24 pm
Stats at lower levels are almost all softcapped to a fixed value, ie you cant go over (25 * level)+50 in every main stat.

Additionally, most of your stats when bolstered will become softcapped ; so when you start getting other buffs, you'll only get half of the value at best (magic resistances are divided by 3 over the sofcap).

So the 400 toughness bonus you take as example is most probably only netting 200 since your bolstered "base" toughness is probably capped or close to the cap (you can check on character, nearly every main stat should be orange without buffs, saving some like wounds).

I think this mechanic is to avoid penalizing the "real" value of buffs from higher level characters.
Having a softcap is nice, however, that buffs are still very very strong.

I took the shaman hot as example because it is without bolster already around 200. You can easy put 300+ tough on people depending on their level and bolster. That is huge! Try getting 300+ tough without that buff. You would have to put a tough talis in every slot and also get tough renown. With that buff you can go class cannon and still be tough.

That buff mechanic also makes knights and chosen in midtier scenarios and bolstered orvr far too strong. Imagine a knight/chosen running three auras: strength, tough an resis. Now the whole group gets that three buffs and on top of that they get all three buffs bolstered. And it not only buffs, it also debuffs the enemy. It is such a huge difference in having a knight/chosen or not - compared to any other class. Same with the shaman hot, if you know how to keep it up. Here we have also the problem that AMs don't get that to even things out.

Softcapping is nice but it would be better if bolster would only work on stats from equipment. I also question the strength of the shaman tough buff a little. It is twice the strength of normal buffs and comes free with a hot, without additional costs.

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Amdus
Posts: 40

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#4 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:25 am

Even fully bolstered and trying to get every stat capped you'll lose against R40 people in RvR simply because you don't have as many skills as a rank 40 would. Even having toughness capped, it won't save you when your parry/dodge/disrupt are so low. I don't really understand what are you suggesting. You want lowbies to be at a bigger disadvantage than they already are because your AM is not as powerful as the other classes? Sounds like an extremely biased opinion.

Sulorie
Posts: 5602

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#5 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 am

Skill buffs get bolstered, potions not. Potion buffs can't be removed unlike skill buffs.
Working as intended.

I might be wrong but I get the feeling that someone died from a low level shaman and now bolstered buffs are identified as the reason.
Dying is no option.

Justina
Posts: 48

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#6 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:29 am

Sulorie wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 am
Skill buffs get bolstered, potions not. Potion buffs can't be removed unlike skill buffs.
Working as intended.
You can't really remove knight/chosen auras and removing the shaman tough buff would be pointless. It would get reapplied a few seconds later again.

In the live version you could only have one knight/chosen aura and had to toggle. Running three auras that buff and debuff is pretty strong compared to any other tank. With bolster even more. When you debuff a bolstered target then you debuff a lot more than the actual value of the debuff. Compare these auras to the BO/SM buffs. They have only a chance to proc, they need to hit someone and it is short duration.

The shaman tough buff is twice as strong as any other buff - therefore the amount of through bolster is also doubled. I mean, you could always argue that something has no impact but having 300+ more tough or not makes a difference. Especially when you are facing damage over time spells or smaller hits. The AM channel on the other hand has no buff, a cooldown, can be interrupted, can't be used on the move and while you channel you can't do anything else. With the last AM/Shaman changes and the hotting of up to three people with the normal hot it has become easier for the shaman to keep both hots and that tough buff up on several people. The AM didn't gain much because the channel is still locking him down for 3s. So yeah, that shaman hot/buff is strong. Too strong? Maybe, maybe not. Comparing it to the AM channel makes it look a lot better though. It's not only a buff, it's a hot with buff. Shamans also get Breath of Mork moral, which is another hot. So you have normal hot, spec hot, cleanse hot and moral hot + the normal heals. AM falls short at moral and second spec hot.
Sulorie wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 am
I might be wrong but I get the feeling that someone died from a low level shaman and now bolstered buffs are identified as the reason.
Really?

User avatar
wachlarz
Posts: 613

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#7 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:37 pm

Justina wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:29 am
Sulorie wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 am
Skill buffs get bolstered, potions not. Potion buffs can't be removed unlike skill buffs.
Working as intended.
You can't really remove knight/chosen auras and removing the shaman tough buff would be pointless. It would get reapplied a few seconds later again.

In the live version you could only have one knight/chosen aura and had to toggle. Running three auras that buff and debuff is pretty strong compared to any other tank. With bolster even more. When you debuff a bolstered target then you debuff a lot more than the actual value of the debuff. Compare these auras to the BO/SM buffs. They have only a chance to proc, they need to hit someone and it is short duration.

The shaman tough buff is twice as strong as any other buff - therefore the amount of through bolster is also doubled. I mean, you could always argue that something has no impact but having 300+ more tough or not makes a difference. Especially when you are facing damage over time spells or smaller hits. The AM channel on the other hand has no buff, a cooldown, can be interrupted, can't be used on the move and while you channel you can't do anything else. With the last AM/Shaman changes and the hotting of up to three people with the normal hot it has become easier for the shaman to keep both hots and that tough buff up on several people. The AM didn't gain much because the channel is still locking him down for 3s. So yeah, that shaman hot/buff is strong. Too strong? Maybe, maybe not. Comparing it to the AM channel makes it look a lot better though. It's not only a buff, it's a hot with buff. Shamans also get Breath of Mork moral, which is another hot. So you have normal hot, spec hot, cleanse hot and moral hot + the normal heals. AM falls short at moral and second spec hot.
Sulorie wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 am
I might be wrong but I get the feeling that someone died from a low level shaman and now bolstered buffs are identified as the reason.
Really?
Some classes can remove this hot.

Sulorie
Posts: 5602

Re: [Bolster] stats increase from buffs

Post#8 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:47 pm

Justina wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:29 am


In the live version you could only have one knight/chosen aura and had to toggle. Running three auras that buff and debuff is pretty strong compared to any other tank. With bolster even more. When you debuff a bolstered target then you debuff a lot more than the actual value of the debuff. Compare these auras to the BO/SM buffs. They have only a chance to proc, they need to hit someone and it is short duration.

The shaman tough buff is twice as strong as any other buff - therefore the amount of through bolster is also doubled. I mean, you could always argue that something has no impact but having 300+ more tough or not makes a difference. Especially when you are facing damage over time spells or smaller hits. The AM channel on the other hand has no buff, a cooldown, can be interrupted, can't be used on the move and while you channel you can't do anything else. With the last AM/Shaman changes and the hotting of up to three people with the normal hot it has become easier for the shaman to keep both hots and that tough buff up on several people. The AM didn't gain much because the channel is still locking him down for 3s. So yeah, that shaman hot/buff is strong. Too strong? Maybe, maybe not. Comparing it to the AM channel makes it look a lot better though. It's not only a buff, it's a hot with buff. Shamans also get Breath of Mork moral, which is another hot. So you have normal hot, spec hot, cleanse hot and moral hot + the normal heals. AM falls short at moral and second spec hot.
On live, you could have 3 auras up at once too. You just had to cycle them, as they didn't instantly fade away. There were addons like Twister for this very reason.

Imagine, shamans can debuff 240 toughness as well. ;)

To judge how much impact something has, add 240 mainstats and use heal/dmg spells and compare the differences. You might be surprised.

Nobody should use Breath of Mork moral tbh, M2 is Focused Mind and in some edge cases Rampaging Syphon.

Overall, direct heals are better than hots, because their healing is slow and takes some time to kick in. It's fine, if you run around solo and trying to kite fools, who chase you.

While shaman has one hot more than archmage, it's the opposite for dps spec, where archmage got one additional dot.

Both classes are not totally mirrored and each has something the other side likes to get. I enjoy both.
Dying is no option.

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