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Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

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meatcpu
Posts: 39

Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:16 pm

Snare:
Important for keeping targets in melee range, anti-kiting. WP gets ranged snare for free. DoK can use Celerity to snare enemies but has to give up the modest healing and damage of Vitality Covenant to do so. In theory a DoK’s group would be better at snaring as a possible advantage.


Covenant/Prayer:
WP gets essentially 200 health per hit with a tactic and heals one group member for 200 as well. DoK can boost party’s damage by 125 per hit cycle and one teammate gets 125 health. Potent Covenants could increase this by 15%. The Grace WP heals a bit more and can reliably receive an extra 100 wounds/sec for themselves. This makes the WP a better at both healing and surviving, in line with the tank healer archetype.


Exalted defences vs Transferred focus
Exalted Defences gives procs on defending. Transferred Focus procs on crit. On defence is much easier to increase than crit, but with the crit boost tactic both can have 100% uptime. Exalted defences is great for the hybrid spec. Where this breaks down is the fact that Transferred focus does not boost healing from lifetaps. The proc that comes from attacking does not improve heals derived from attacking. This change alone might be enough to make the Sacrifice DoK on par with the Grace WP. This change would be in line with the general trend towards making the DoK more offensive and the WP more defensive.

Sigmar’s Shield vs Pillage Essence:
WP friendly target gains health on hit costs 10 SE each time. Pillage essence has a 10 second cooldown, can be used to gain maybe 90 SE and drains up 50 AP. Was doing too much damage and reduced in recent patch. In combination with Horrifying offering this could be an effective AP drain. The extra SE can be helpful but there is an option to heal while gaining SE so this isn’t very helpful on the whole. This may be useful in a 1v1 setting and is fairly helpful when leveling a Sacrifice DoK, but the WP again has much better tools towards being a tanky healer.

Sigmar’s Grace vs Devour Essence: WP can give party 2 free BiS wounds talismans. DoK can heal targets for up to 400 health per tick if they have at least 4 enemies in melee range of them. Maybe useful for healing tanks at range between Blood of my Blood cooldowns if you can find the SE to channel. In general blood of my blood of my blood is a better heal for others and 3 target consume essence is a better return for self healing when surrounded.

Sigmar’s Fist vs Consume Strength:
WP get a BiS tali worth of strength more than DoK. DoK’s version drains strength. Again, maybe this is better for 1v1, but is also another way the WP can (modestly) increase it’s healing thru-put. WP can buy a tactic to increase toughness by 75 AND drain for opponent for 75 strength. DoK can drain 50 AP with mirror ability.

Heal debuff:
The heal debuff makes a pretty big difference per Rydiak and the WP debuff can be reached with 6 points, three of which are a no brainer because of the 3pt crit tactic. The DoK has to spend 12 points to reach the heal debuff of the Wrath tree. This does require a tactic slot, but perhaps it's implementation is better for various reasons. The grievance here is that It's much easier for the tankier more defensive WP to get a pretty useful offensive tool given that they have an overall higher healing and defensive capacity.

Detaunt:
From what I understand the Grace WP originally could detaunt a single target and those around that target, a melee DoK could previously enjoy a melee detaunt with decent uptime. The detaunts were made to work the same in the recent patch and the melee portion greatly reduced for both.

One interesting change was made recently to allow a shield on crit for the DoK. I felt really content about this change until I realized that the WP already had a similar shield: Emperor’s ward. No points spent to get it and it’s useful outside of melee range which helps with the hybrid build.


In basically every way the Grace WP is a better tanky healer. One might say that the Sacrifice DoK is meant to be more offensive, but the heal debuff issue counters that in practice. Please improve the ability of a Sac DoK as a tanky healer in some way. Of the changes I’ve suggested the 20% increased healing from crit being applied to life taps (as well) seems the most natural change. Secondly I think that Devour Essence should be made more useful in any number of different ways or should be outright replaced with something else; I posted a thread elsewhere on this topic and no one was able to offer a positive review of this ability.
Last edited by meatcpu on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kpi
Posts: 149

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm

I think exalted defenses dont work on lifetaps. BTW with a Grace WP you only have 1 valid tactic combination if u want use it
For Kislev!!! For the Zarine!!!

Kpihuss -- WP 86 full SOV Main/Off/2xWarlord
Kpithrogrim -- IB 83
Kpigaragrim -- Slayer 60
Kpikossar -- SW 50+
Kpirmedes -- RP 50+
Kpiboris -- KOTBS 50+

abezverkhiy
Posts: 467

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#3 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:19 am

Exalted Defences is only for cast spells. Read its description.
JohanRuth WH, Valknutt WP, Glendhu ENG, Lochdhu IB, Tamdhu SL
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meatcpu
Posts: 39

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#4 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:27 am

Kpi wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm
I think exalted defenses dont work on lifetaps. BTW with a Grace WP you only have 1 valid tactic combination if u want use it
Rydiak offers at least 3 Grace builds all with different combinations of tactics. One which is better for RvR uses Fueled actions for SE and relies on more casted heals.

meatcpu
Posts: 39

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#5 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:31 am

Kpi wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm
I think exalted defenses dont work on lifetaps. BTW with a Grace WP you only have 1 valid tactic combination if u want use it
Rydiak offer several Grace builds all with different combinations of tactics. See the example below including Exalted Defenses.
abezverkhiy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:19 am
Exalted Defences is only for cast spells. Read its description.
"Exalted defences is great for the hybrid spec." Perhaps I should have clarified. When I say "hybrid spec" I mean carrying a shield and casting book heals which is a spec Rydiak suggests for RvR with this build: RoR.builders - Warrior Priest

abezverkhiy
Posts: 467

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#6 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:14 am

I like this build but from my understanding it is very gear demanding. You need to secure decent amounts of STR, WOU, TOU, WIL and it may be a bit too much.

What are your stats in this build?
JohanRuth WH, Valknutt WP, Glendhu ENG, Lochdhu IB, Tamdhu SL
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mynban
Posts: 77

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#7 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 am

Should I point out opening the can of worms in terms of difference between wrath WP vs torture DoK. Whatever gap there is between grace vs sacrifice doesnt come close to how much dps DoK overpowers wrath.

In terms of grace tactics, you have to have grace of sigmar, divine fury and fanatisicm. There is simply no way around it without gimping yourself. Having *some* options on just one tactic is barely variation. I thought of dropping fanatism tree, but doesn't pay off unless you also drop divine fury and pretty much go pseudo-book build; at that point better off go salvation right away.

We have to accept that WP is more defensive oriented and DoK is more offense oriented. Expecting WP and DoK be similar wont mean gaining what other is capable of, but more likely losing benefits of both.

Just my 2cents

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Sciberr
Posts: 46
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Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#8 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:48 am

mynban wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 am
We have to accept that WP is more defensive oriented and DoK is more offense oriented.
^

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zulnam
Posts: 574

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#9 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:39 am

You don't need carbon copies. Just a bit of tweaking.

The recent Gift of Khaine seems nice imo, but it does require crit (which if you're teamed with a 2H BG should be easier to get). In a way it's in line with DoK's offensive nature. Not sure if it procs for both you and defensive or just defensive; not even sure if that is needed.

Other than that Pillage Essence is something that would probably require a bit of a look. Maybe increase the value to 100 and have it act as a morale pump for your defensive, similar to the recent Bonded Pack change for WL (which is for the entire group).

That would give snb DoK a role as an offensive healer as well as a morale pump for an important dps; would mean more would be wanted in ST groups.

Be smart, don't just spend twenty paragraphs complaining, look around at what else is happening. No class lives in a bubble, no class is an exact mirror and this is a team game.

And just a bit of food for thought: You need to slot a tactic to apply heal debuff, yes, but you are also freeing up one GCD. Look at the big picture.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH, BG

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Kpi
Posts: 149

Re: Grace WP vs Sacrifice DoK

Post#10 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:04 am

meatcpu wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:31 am
Kpi wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm
I think exalted defenses dont work on lifetaps. BTW with a Grace WP you only have 1 valid tactic combination if u want use it
Rydiak offer several Grace builds all with different combinations of tactics. See the example below including Exalted Defenses.
abezverkhiy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:19 am
Exalted Defences is only for cast spells. Read its description.
"Exalted defences is great for the hybrid spec." Perhaps I should have clarified. When I say "hybrid spec" I mean carrying a shield and casting book heals which is a spec Rydiak suggests for RvR with this build: RoR.builders - Warrior Priest
Are u serious? This spec is totally useless... No heals from lifetaps (no damage), no RF (no book), no AP to the group (no refreshing radiance), and no Diwine Warding...
For Kislev!!! For the Zarine!!!

Kpihuss -- WP 86 full SOV Main/Off/2xWarlord
Kpithrogrim -- IB 83
Kpigaragrim -- Slayer 60
Kpikossar -- SW 50+
Kpirmedes -- RP 50+
Kpiboris -- KOTBS 50+

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