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Full regen build ruining the game

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yoluigi
Posts: 229

Full regen build ruining the game

Post#1 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:42 pm

The full regen builds on tanks is way too strong. I was with a friend 2h ib could not even get the chosen 2h down more than 85% and we both in Full bis gear.
With that extra item we got 80 regen should have been instead something like +20 initiative.
The damage to balancing class/gear is pretty much done since we got sov gear without releasing any good dps weapons (back in live was like 105 dps) soo any defencive build will alwas be better than any offencive build if your melee. I personaly think the most balance the game was when Bloodlord/invader was last tier.

With regen We could make it if you put any kind of 25, 50% anti heal it would also work for regen.

Meaning if you got 500 regen would go down to 250 if 50% anti heal is placed.
Or release sov weapons?

What's is your thought?
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Edit respond from ekundu01
Regen is a problem on only some classes. Mainly the ones you see soloing are the only ones that can make regen work for them because there is a niche that allows it to be a bit over the top.

Main classes that can get away with running it are ones that have access to either good mitigation or other skills to compliment the regen.

All tanks with the exception of 7 piece invader have copy paste type gear. The stats on warlord and sov are the same for all tanks yet all tanks are not created equal. This creates imbalances when it comes to performance in the solo/small man roam. There are also imbalances when it comes to order/destro we won't get into that because that will just cause a S'Storm here.

Regen on its own looks bad on paper, what is one hot tick ever 4 seconds really going to do in a fight right? But here are the factors that make it a bit over the top.

1. Mitigation - each time you avoid damage for 4 seconds you are netting more hp than you lose. High Armor/toughness, avoidance mainly parry/absorb, along with in general kiting/punting people away for a few seconds to get extra ticks in.

2. Duration of the fight - the longer it goes on the more it works for you. Lets go on the low side lets say Warlord chest and boots, off sov shoulders, the new regen pocket item and only 1 fleshrender ring. That is 304 regen every 4 seconds. In 3 seconds it would tick 7 times so that is 2128 hp over 30 seconds that can't be heal debuffed, can't be stripped, doesn't cost ap or a global cd.

3. Combining it with other heals - Most if not all solo players are running with Double heal pots and possibly absorb pots. Some are running some sort of heal mechanics from the class they are playing, bullet heal, kiss heal, hot tactics, absorb skills/tactics/morale. Straight damage avoidance like confusing movements or other avoidance boosting abilities.

When you factor in all this combined you end up having almost 2 lifebars or more depending on how long the fight drags out to be.

The reason this crap works so well on some classes is because they have the loop hole to get by being more defensive while still having a way to deal damage. Mainly classes that don't have any way to deal non physical damage draw the short straw. Not saying you can't make it work on physical only classes but you have a much harder time because everyone has access to armor pots. Classes that have access to magic damage can spec more defensive and not lose much of anything. Now that some of the procs scale with damage stats from recent changes it makes being defensive even more easy.

Think about it this way what if all healers had a permanent hot that can't crit but can't be debuffed running 24/7 that doesn't cost ap or a global that stacks with everything? How hard would it be to kill the healer that is now running from you casting other heals and hots and absorbs? This is what regen is like in a nut shell in the solo game. And most solo 70+ players are all running this because the only way to beat it is to outlast them because most players are not going to have the burst to end it quickly.

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-Grock-
The problem isn't the regen itself (frankly its quite weak), the problem is how powerful the defence stacking is, and how easily some classes can do it without sacrificing in other aspects like damage.

Armor and avoidances stack additively which results in hyperbolic growth of their efficiency - the more you get the more effective your investments are.
Even the current hard cap of 75% doesn't help much coz 75% is still very very high: thats a 400% increase in the amount of dmg you can survive. And if you have both armor and for example parry at those 75% values (reachable for Chosen, BG) then thats 1600% increase in the amount of damage you can withstand.
Imagine these values, but as damage buffs instead, sounds completely insane, right?

This is because armor/avoidance/toughness reduces the amount of dmg/hits that lands on you, so the closer you get to reducing it to 0% the more efficient it is.
To demonstrate with an example - going from 0 parrry to 10% parry means on average you'll be able to tank 11% more damage than HP you have, thats called Effective HP (you'll be hit by only 90% of all attacks, so 1 / 0.9 = 1.11).
However getting the same 10% parry when you already have 50% (which is alreay 200% Effective HP) will take you from 200% EHP to 250% EHP, which is 25% more and lets you survive a whole extra half of your base HP as damage (1/0.5 = 2 = 200% ehp, while 1 / 0.4 = 2.5 = 250% ehp, 250/200 = 1.25).

This sort of math applies to all damage mitigation values that stack additively in this game, but most noticeable with Armor and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt/Block due to them being easily stackable without softcaps and high fairly high hardcaps.
Trivial Blows is also affected by this, which makes its low values very ineffective, while going all 4lvls in it is good (first 3 levels give you 24% reduction = +31% ehp vs crit dmg at the cost of 30rr, while 4th level boosts it to 40% reduction = +66% ehp at the cost of only 15rr)

Damage bonuses like crit or strenth, on the other hand, have opposite growth effect as you stack them - each further point of investment is relatively less effective because you already got a bunch (although the effect is fairly subtle due to low values).
In other words its better to build multiple sources of damage, instead of relying on maxing out a single one.


Until this disparity is addressed there's no point nerfing Regen, becuse it will just kill it for non-deftard builds, while still leaving the true cause of the problem unattended.
Last edited by yoluigi on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mogt
Posts: 438

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#2 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:47 pm

nothing is rtuining the game, if your and your friend are bad, then it is your mistake.many players forget, that gear is not all, if you dont know, what your char can do, then you can have the best gear and you will lose, that is so easy to know, the combination between gear and knowledge about the chars are important.

it is easy to cry, balacne are bad etc. the keyword is knownledge about your own char. you must use dirrent skill against different enemys. all is fine.

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yoluigi
Posts: 229

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#3 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:51 pm

mogt wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:47 pm
nothing is rtuining the game, if your and your friend are bad, then it is your mistake.many players forget, that gear is not all, if you dont know, what your char can do, then you can have the best gear and you will lose, that is so easy to know, the combination between gear and knowledge about the chars are important.

it is easy to cry, balacne are bad etc. the keyword is knownledge about your own char. you must use dirrent skill against different enemys. all is fine.
lol you serious?
Check out my Wp PVP video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL-MjcckKvc Vol.1
Last Wp 2h Berseker https://youtu.be/DSJT9kBUXlc
Choopa solo roaming https://youtu.be/38vi74PPlpA
Chosen 2h https://youtu.be/cbvCikoOIaE

Sulorie
Posts: 5741

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#4 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:51 pm

So him healing 20hp/s more makes it impossible to kill or why this thread now?
What classes and specs were involved in that fight?
Dying is no option.

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tazdingo
Posts: 830

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#5 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:31 pm

you expected to burst a bis tank as a heal tank duo? and you think the reason you couldn't is cause of 100hp a second at best? are you drunk? dps WPs hit me for 3 lol. WL aa's me for 600. play a dps or go heal

yhani
Posts: 74

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#6 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:33 pm

it is weak af in real fights because that regen stuff comes with price of real mitigation
some support healing is alright but it is real healers who do that heavy lifting
Vadhal - kotbs rr80+

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Husti
Posts: 111

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#7 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:46 pm

yoluigi wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:42 pm
The full regen builds on tanks is way too strong. I was with a friend 2h ib could not even get the chosen 2h down more than 85% and we both in Full bis gear.
With that extra item we got 80 regen should have been instead something like +20 initiative.
The damage to balancing class/gear is pretty much done since we got sov gear without releasing any good dps weapons (back in live was like 105 dps) soo any defencive build will alwas be better than any offencive build if your melee. I personaly think the most balance the game was when Bloodlord/invader was last tier.

With regen We could make it if you put any kind of 25, 50% anti heal it would also work for regen.

Meaning if you got 500 regen would go down to 250 if 50% anti heal is placed.
Or release sov weapons?

What's is your thought?
100% agree. Not only on tanks. On pretty much every class that can go tanky.

It's easy to get several hundred hp every few seconds. On main problem here is that ring https://ibb.co/D1dCk9X that exists in various versions on both sides and is NOT UNIQUE!

The new quest item from city with 80 per 4 seconds made it even worse.

Imagine a WE with 600 absorb after crit, heals on their kisses with tactic, several hundred reggen, heal/absorb potions and great escape abilities. On top of that they still do a lot damage, even if they go full def, because their procs are barely affected by strength. And they just buffed that procs with the latest patch. It's stupid...

Same with Maras who have a self hot and tons of toughness and tanks that take almost no damage. It's broken...

Same with BGs who have bubble, heals and a m1 that can bring them to 100% life again when they have some dots/debuffs on them, which they usually have. It's stupid...
Last edited by Husti on Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

meatcpu
Posts: 59

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#8 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:47 pm

Were you spec'ed as dps or heals at the time? A 2H tank is still not really a dps, they can either have enough defensive stats to guard, or enough offensive stats and skills to penetrate armor and bypass defenses.

A tank and healer should probably struggle to take down a tank especially if he is running potions properly. That would apply to a shield WP and 2H tank just the same. Shield WP is a better healer than shield DoK but less offensive.

Heal debuff should probably affect self healing if it does not tho.

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Husti
Posts: 111

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#9 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:55 pm

meatcpu wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:47 pm
Heal debuff should probably affect self healing if it does not tho.
It does not. Same with absorb and same with kisses healproc. So for WEs that means that all their stuff is immune to heal debuffs.

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normanis
Posts: 843
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Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#10 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:56 pm

wasnt there video where 2 chosens fight each ather , and 1 chosen didnt even get scratched while ather died, i dont think they where bad players.
As is has often been said this is RoR not live and as such it’s not a basis for change / buff / nerf (not my words)

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