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Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

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Ysaran
Posts: 1271

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#11 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:43 pm

CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:16 pm
Moonbiter wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:30 pm Mobile squishes has no chance to evade almost certain death within a few sec if near a tank.
10 sec rooted is enough to kill most of light armored targets (except healz).
If you are going to be catch by a tank as a RDPS/healers, instant use your M2.
It offtopic, but shouldn't Focused Mind able to shake of ChCh? I mean FM is M2, while ChCh is M1 so it seams fair to me. Though I'm not sure about the more practical problems of implementing such a change
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CyunUnderis
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Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#12 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:45 pm

Ysaran wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:43 pm
CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:16 pm
Moonbiter wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:30 pm Mobile squishes has no chance to evade almost certain death within a few sec if near a tank.
10 sec rooted is enough to kill most of light armored targets (except healz).
If you are going to be catch by a tank as a RDPS/healers, instant use your M2.
It offtopic, but shouldn't Focused Mind able to shake of ChCh? I mean FM is M2, while ChCh is M1 so it seams fair to me. Though I'm not sure about the more practical problems of implementing such a change
I don't know. Focused Mind prevents the fact that you can be Champion Challenge (it was the same for any anti-snare from MDPS but right now this is bugged), but to be able to cleanse the Champion Challenge, it will be too strong and RDPS that knows how to kite will never be caught.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1271

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#13 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:59 pm

CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:45 pm
Ysaran wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:43 pm
CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:16 pm

If you are going to be catch by a tank as a RDPS/healers, instant use your M2.
It offtopic, but shouldn't Focused Mind able to shake of ChCh? I mean FM is M2, while ChCh is M1 so it seams fair to me. Though I'm not sure about the more practical problems of implementing such a change
I don't know. Focused Mind prevents the fact that you can be Champion Challenge (it was the same for any anti-snare from MDPS but right now this is bugged), but to be able to cleanse the Champion Challenge, it will be too strong and RDPS that knows how to kite will never be caught.
Yeah, that makes sense
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wonshot
Posts: 1113

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#14 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:17 am

I'll try to take abit of a different view on this debate. How often does a ChampionsChallenge lead to a kill because the damagedealers then are able to connect and assist down the target which they couldnt previously, but they still had enough burst but just couldnt connect it.

How much of it, is the target swap, and how much of it is actually catching someone slippery.
When piling onto the same target initially there will be more defensive buffs and Hots on that target, whereas the targetswap will sometimes lead to an opening with room for error in late guardswap, less HealPerSec and fresh immunities.

Now is ChCh too strong with a rather early unbreakable morale investment tradeoff:
- Investing 60sec morale cooldown and unable to do defensive morales for a minut.
- Rooting yourself in place even if the target should die during the root
- The target is still able to perform defensive actions (squigarmor, tripplepot, detaunt etc.)

For oRvR this early M1 can catch someone, lead to an opening kill and a potential snowball in a warband vs warband engagement. But its also a full morale-lock traded for 60sec no options for a potential instant ress by AM/Shammy or a 3sec hardcast ress and one group with only half healing output while casting the ress. Which honestly almost seem like an overinvestment for just one kill, and might just be scapegoat when the fight would maybe already had been determined without the chch just at a slower tempo but same result.
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Martok
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Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#15 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:03 am

Moonbiter wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:33 pmHolding target immovable after a few seconds of fight is too strong because of it is available too early.

Champion's Challenge has been an M 1 for, what, ever? It is just one of those abilities to be used and tolerated. It will never change.

Moonbiter wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:33 pmRaze is weak and almost harmless morale.

Raze is a timing attack, not a blunt force attack.
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Ninjagon
Posts: 479

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#16 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:58 am

I consider Champion's Challenge as perfectly balanced. You have to sacrifice other things for it, as Bombling described above.

It is not a 100% kill but a chance to stop kiting or key target from running, which is often very hard to do otherwise (running shamie, for example).
And (which is also important) both factions can do that.
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Faction69
Posts: 53

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#17 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:27 pm

No way. There are much stronger M1s. 100% parry and dodge for 7 seconds. 3600 absorb...

Only thing that needs fixing with champions challenge is that the visuals are super wonky, it should root both of you facing each other but often they're facing away or in some random position

salazarn
Posts: 42

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#18 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:47 pm

Only annoying thing is it stops u turning so a 2h tank gets 10seconds of parry ignore

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Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#19 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:36 pm

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othr
Posts: 14

Re: Champion's Challenge is too strong for M1

Post#20 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:37 pm

The only issue with the ability I see is where the target has higher latency, it leads to some silly situations where you root someone and they end up 2m from you where you can't even hit them. But the ability itself is no worse than some other silly m1s, gork sez stop, 100% dodge/parry + riposte or some tactics like run buffs and auto detaunt (lol).

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