Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

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Panzer80
Posts: 146

Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#1 » Tue May 21, 2024 11:44 pm

1: [Healers] are still too hard to kill. Shammies are near unkillable if they play their cards right in even fights (AMs are easier to kill). Shammies and AM DOTS are still over tunned. These dots are easy mode since they are ranged abilities, and they are 3 quick cast abilities. Why do they need 3 insta DOTS? That's just bloated. Zealot and Runnie staggers are too long for ranged insta cast abilities. DPS Dok's and WP heal themselves too much for going dps spec. All healers who go dps for that matter should lose almost all of their ability to heal.

2: [Melee DPS] AOE range is still too far. Mdps AOE range needs to be 15 ft max (unless tooltip gives a valid reason. Dragon GUN for example). Also, in my opinion Mara Demolition should shoot spikes out to 30ft making it an exception in the tooltip and maybe even WL slashing blade could have a wave of magical energy in the tooltip. The Spam mdps classes could use some actual skill-based game play imo. Perhaps requiring target locks for certain powerful abilities for example. Imagine requiring a target lock to play... Get to the Choppa is still the dumbest ability in the game because there's no believable reason/tooltip/graphics to explain it. Oh, and no target required. Mara still pulls people through all kinds of objects. This is not a skilled ability either (tab and mash/click) and about 80% of the time you have yourself a pull. IF maras actually pulled for 1v1's maybe I'd be ok, but there's so many chicken mara players these days it's annoying. Riposte tactic should only be available to WE/WH. Why on earth mid armored brute classes can have this tactic is beyond me. WE/WH need unique heal depuffs and not standard ones that all other classes have. They are the assassins after all. 75% heal debuff or poisoning of incoming healing to cause a % damage of the healing that would have been done to the target. Something different for sure. WH bullets should not be parried but require dodge. Burn away lies tooltip needs to be changed to describe it as a torch and oil douse to fit the animation and range. WE should not have 30 ft melee attacks with daggers. WL pet.. the bugs omg, needs more HP.

3: [Ranged] SH disarms needs to be moved to the actual SH and require parry (it's in the MELEE TREE) it's effectively a ranged ability atm and having an active pet is too low of a cost when you can shoot 65-100 ft attacks at someone (this class SH has SO MUCH, not that I'm complaining). In fact, all physical disarms should require parry. There should be no physical range disarms, only magic ones. ENGI/Magus are the most consistently satisfying classes to encounter in the lakes. I love fighting these two classes. I never feel cheated or feel they are underwhelming. SH pet bugs, but not as bad as WL since it has ranged attacks.

4: [Tanks] have seen the most changes of late and have had some good fixes. Kotbs and Chosen are no longer the sole punt bots. All tanks need at least a guard breaking punt. Meaning the punt will break the guard range when a tank is punted away. I think IB still needs a little tuning on its punt trajectory, but things are looking better in this area now. I would love for guard to no require a party (a tank can dream).

I doubt this will even be read but do please remember that the game was made as a "quasi mirror" class system and not exact mirrors. Making duplicate changes is boring and I think most people like the idea of quasi mirrors that this game offered all those years ago. yes, "balance" is harder this way, but having a more in-depth class system is worth it.
Last edited by Panzer80 on Wed May 22, 2024 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nihrandil [SM] 84, Arendollus [WL] 83, Caelroran [SW] 56, Thaler [WH] 83, Tionac [AM] 54, Hocke [Kotbs] 51
Gilgamash [BO] 82, Kaylor [Mara] 82, Gobsmack [Sham] 63 Jockitch [SH] 55

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Bozzax
Posts: 2506

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#2 » Wed May 22, 2024 5:30 am

Sure as long as all passive healing from gear is removed for tanky classes
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Caduceus
Posts: 680

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#3 » Wed May 22, 2024 5:46 am

Healers being too tanky is perhaps the single-most pervasive issue in RoR. At this point I'm almost certain it's simply a wrong-headed "design philosophy".

The cause is obvious: willpower is a very weak stat and healers don't need to invest in it to get good heals. The result is healers get to stack themselves to the brim with defensive stats producing a very odd non-balance.

Healers should be vulnerable, to balance the large impact they have on fights. This creates tactical depth, which is what much of RoR lacks.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

akisnaakkeli
Posts: 191

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#4 » Wed May 22, 2024 7:34 am

Caduceus wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 5:46 am Healers being too tanky is perhaps the single-most pervasive issue in RoR. At this point I'm almost certain it's simply a wrong-headed "design philosophy".

The cause is obvious: willpower is a very weak stat and healers don't need to invest in it to get good heals. The result is healers get to stack themselves to the brim with defensive stats producing a very odd non-balance.

Healers should be vulnerable, to balance the large impact they have on fights. This creates tactical depth, which is what much of RoR lacks.
This is not because of Healers. It is because ROR has removed HUGE Amounts of Crit! Both Critical dmg/rate procs and from gear pieces changed from 3% to 1-2 and there is no shoulder crit slot. Also both Trivial Blows and Crit reduction existing is so stupid. 45 RR points for 14% Crit but 30rr points to -15% Critical reduction...

Also it is because 1.5s gcd instead of 1.15s which is the original in AOR+ROR. We went from 8 skills used in 10+ seconds to 6 skills in 10s which is BIG difference. This obviously better for Casters/healers And still melee dominates which is just bad design. Also AOE HD removal.... and 24 aoe cap, lastly Morale dmg cap.

Fix those things and things will get MUCH better and smoother.

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rady
Posts: 74

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#5 » Wed May 22, 2024 7:44 am

Bozzax wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 5:30 am Sure as long as all passive healing from gear is removed for tanky classes
Why just tanky classes? Def engi and WE are most broken classes in 1v1.
If we don't talk about 1v1 then there is no point in removing regen from tanks.
Ris - 85rr BO
Risx - 83rr SH

F4llen4ngel
Posts: 46
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Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#6 » Wed May 22, 2024 8:22 am

Lot of nice ideas except one, playing mid level SH i experienced, that disarm gives at least some chance to survive a single WH encounter, IMHO.
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salazarn
Posts: 62

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#7 » Wed May 22, 2024 8:51 am

100% bang on.

Classes should feel like what they should do. And clothie healers should be higher impact and at the same time be squishy.

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Nekkma
Posts: 729

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#8 » Wed May 22, 2024 9:19 am

Healers are in general squisher on RoR than live imo. Especially dok/wp tankiness have been nerfed to the ground. But even as a fully decked out shaman on live you could pretty much tank 1-2 dps without even the need to kite (partly this was because gear differnces on live was much bigger) and if needed kiting was stronger with unnerfed run away and odjira/crystal. That is certainly not the case here (possibly with the exception of RP). You also had alot of better ohshit buttons with m4 pretty much avaliable on cd, great defensive pocket items etc.

As mainly a casual tank player these days I feel most healers go down just fine with debuffs and assisting.
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lemao
Posts: 311

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#9 » Wed May 22, 2024 9:43 am

Imagine in the current state of the game (exremely fast ttk) saying healers are to strong.
Really shows how out of touch some people are...

Btw, you are not supposed to solo kill a healer without debuffs.
BIS healers struggle to stay alive through guard if focused by 2 geared dps atm

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Uchoo
Posts: 427

Re: Critique on the current state from a veteran player.

Post#10 » Wed May 22, 2024 11:26 am

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, and I'll respond to some of it.

Too many insta dots, DPS Healers shouldn't heal as much

This is an interesting point because it highlights a pretty severe problem with the game, lack of personal defensive & utility tools. DPS Healers don't actually heal that much, but their lifetap healing, and some of their Healing abilities, essentially function as Personal Defensive Cooldowns, therefore making them VERY strong classes in 1v1 and sometimes group play. Every class needs a serious re-haul with this kind of consideration in mind.

Personal cooldowns not only offer a lot more player agency but they are core part of balance, even in group play. With how crazy damage is right now, I feel like this needs to be done sooner rather than later. Even in a full warband with some of the best players on the server, some dps or even tanks die before a casted heal finishes due to the "Everyone push all your channels at once" meta. Personal cooldowns not only help solve this but players feel good pushing them to counter damage. The result is less stress on the supports, less toxicity because your survival isn't completely tied to your tanks and healers, and just a better feel overall. That's how it is in every other 3D MMO, and for good reason. Witch Hunter / Witch Elf Vanish was the first step in this direction. You Wot was the next but was removed for some reason.

TL;DR: Add Personals, more player agency / autonomy !

Git to da Choppa! should be removed

At this point, I kind of agree. This one ability seems to be the core behind Choppa balance. Choppa is a terrible class, especially put next to Slayer but GTDC pugstomps so hard in RvR that the class is just punished for it. Choppas are completely reliant on 2 channels to deal their AoE damage, which can both be stopped by soft-CC, gimping the class, and Furious Stompin'.

Meanwhile Slayers, the best class in the game since its launch on live, has ID (Furious Stompin but you can cascade it with a 5s cd vs 20 KEK);
Shatter Limbs (AoE CD increase);
50% AA haste;
a reduced incoming CC tactic;
a Crit damage tactic (unreliable but still incredibly powerful);
up to nearly 90% passive Armor Penetration; etc.

The only time Slayer isn't the best is when there's something that can pressure it so hard that it can't stay alive or at least can't stay red, which more or less isn't the case at the moment;
or can keep it from staying in melee range, which also isn't really possible after a time currently.

Look at organized play. Choppa Win conditions are Stomp + Channel, completely countered by interrupts; or M3 / M4 drops.
Slayer Win conditions?
ID Cascading. You can do this yourself with Short Temper, Winds isn't even needed;
Shatter Limbs on frontline to stop pressure / on healers to stop healing;
1-2 ID's + Rampage Channel, similar to Choppa's but with more damage and ignores a large amount of Parry + Block, therefore much stronger;
M3-M4 drops.

You could nerf Slayer 3-4 times and it would STILL probably be better than Choppa in organized content lol.

Guard should be useable out of party

This I don't agree with because the logistics of how to use Guard at that point become way too much on the role that is already by far the hardest in the game.

However, I do agree that more Synergies and Utility should be useable out of the group. For example, let's talk about Blessing of Heaven. If I want to go play on Order, I can just hop on any of its RDPS classes as they all have very powerful Ranged AoE specs and go stand behind LNM or Cross or Retri or any Organized warband and just add to their damage, their TANKS will keep me alive through most anything just by themselves with 1 Tactic. It's a fun dynamic, ignoring the balance arguments.

Anyways, that's definitely more than enough words from me for one post,

Have a great day,

Uchoo
Last edited by Uchoo on Wed May 22, 2024 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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