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SW - Powerful Draw is too much

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anarchypark
Posts: 2083

SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#1 » Mon May 27, 2024 4:24 pm

I’ve been testing this for months from both sides, mostly from the receiving end.
( I tend to avoid playing overpowered (OP) classes because I can't stand seeing low-level players being shot down like flies. )
My conclusion is that the 15% additive armor penetration is too much.

Here’s the problem:
I use Broadhead Arrow and Shadow Sting, two DoTs, and then shoot Spiral-Fletched Arrow. all Skirmish skills.
This combination is essentially the same as a sorc/BW's timed burst.
If the DoTs are cleansed, I can reapply them since these three skills have no cooldown.
Unlike sorc/BW, there's no counter to this burst damage, and you can do it while moving/chasing.
Compared to other ranged DPS, it's too easy to achieve this level of burst damage, and there’s no counter.
That's enough to categorize it as overpowered.

You might think that this makes them properly competitive against sorc/BW now.
However, making an OP class is not a solution. Don't just compare burst and periodic damage numbers; consider the cost to achieve these results.
sorc/BW sacrifice most of their survivability to achieve insane burst damage, which even has counters.
SW DoT(HD) masking without cooldown is comparable in value to the sorc/BW's burst damage, and SW are more survival-oriented than sorc/BW.
Currently, SW have all these advantages.

Here's an alternative suggestion:
Since their ranged knockdown requires preparation and its duration has been reduced to 2 seconds, it seems reasonable to bring back the original Powerful Draw—the range buff for the Skirmish line.

The problem was that destro melee classes couldn't catch Skirmish SW because of KD, snare, range tactic, Pin and M1 punt.
With the KD nerf, global CC adjustments, and even discarding GTDC (which should be removed), a 90-ish range for Skirmish shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Another issue was that nobody played other paths because Skirmish was the only viable option. That problem was resolved long ago.

Lastly, this change would make it fit as a mirror to the SH 13pt tactic.

Remove the 15% additive armor penetration and bring back the range buff.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS6, BW6, WP8, WH7, IB8, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm6, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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Sever1n
Posts: 213

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#2 » Mon May 27, 2024 6:16 pm

Really want to see some screens of skirm sw insane burst, that can be compared to sork, on doll to confirm everything you posted here. BTW SH have same dots and tactics + pet on top that can kill you trough wall, and whole kit of speedboost, knockbacks, eatpet stuff but here we are SW are OP again and for some reason unreachable for melle in era of covenant of celerity and mara pullls, with wich for some reason destro dont need to be concerned in no lion pet meta. SH just cuties and lets ignore them, if you think 15% extra penetration to plink is nothing. And what range tactic you speak of, i have no idea.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

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tazdingo
Posts: 1230

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#3 » Mon May 27, 2024 6:45 pm

Sever1n wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:16 pm Really want to see some screens of skirm sw insane burst, that can be compared to sork, on doll to confirm everything you posted here. BTW SH have same dots and tactics + pet on top that can kill you trough wall, and whole kit of speedboost, knockbacks, eatpet stuff but here we are SW are OP again and for some reason unreachable for melle in era of covenant of celerity and mara pullls, with wich for some reason destro dont need to be concerned in no lion pet meta. SH just cuties and lets ignore them, if you think 15% extra penetration to plink is nothing. And what range tactic you speak of, i have no idea.
read the guys sig again

akisnaakkeli
Posts: 198

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#4 » Mon May 27, 2024 6:45 pm

Sever1n wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:16 pm Really want to see some screens of skirm sw insane burst, that can be compared to sork, on doll to confirm everything you posted here. BTW SH have same dots and tactics + pet on top that can kill you trough wall, and whole kit of speedboost, knockbacks, eatpet stuff but here we are SW are OP again and for some reason unreachable for melle in era of covenant of celerity and mara pullls, with wich for some reason destro dont need to be concerned in no lion pet meta. SH just cuties and lets ignore them, if you think 15% extra penetration to plink is nothing. And what range tactic you speak of, i have no idea.
Tactic that used to GIve 33ft range to Skirmish/Quick Shootin' making all them 98ft. And 15% Armour pene on Skirmish is much better than big shootin imo. 100ft Runnin arrow vs 65ft Sh version. Also Sh doesnt have 65ft ranged aoe dmg castable on move anymore either and its now morale 3 instead core skill. Lileath Arrow still exists. Imo sw should get old KD back, Broadhead arrow 3x stack and 25% Speed buff on Swift Strikes

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Sever1n
Posts: 213

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#5 » Mon May 27, 2024 6:51 pm

anarchypark wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 4:24 pm The problem was that destro melee classes couldn't catch Skirmish SW because of KD, snare, range tactic, Pin and M1 punt.

I was talking about this.
Average st burst of sork 8.5-9k. Show us pls same numbers on skirm sw in same timestamp.
SH skirm base 65ft+tactic15+15gas squig=95ft range compared to 100 of sw+it work on healdebuff wheres sw 65ft. SH Have fully viable aoe melle spec, casted st spec, and kiting skirm spec.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

Avernus
Posts: 335

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#6 » Mon May 27, 2024 7:45 pm

Really? You're complaining that skirmish SW (which is dead as ST dps) has too much dps?

And if you want some AoE damage - slot No Respite instead and spam Barrage (if you have WW available). If you have no WW - spam your AoE spaghetti, do whatever - you can't do REAL AoE unless you have a pocket SM.

This tactic is just another sign of SW being in a bad spot.

User avatar
anarchypark
Posts: 2083

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#7 » Tue May 28, 2024 8:53 am

This is a dummy test, and I picked the best result. Sorc tried less than 10 times, while SW tried many times.
Before you open it, remember, I already mentioned, "Don't just compare burst and periodic damage numbers."
Even if you score 100k on the board, if your team gets 0 kills, you haven't fulfilled your DPS role.
Conversely, even if you only score 6k but kill the healer, you've done your DPS job.
There are many factors that the board numbers don't capture and show.
Mainly positioning, maneuvering, CC, targeting, countering, etc.
The numbers don’t reflect the moment, timing, and the target you chose.
They don’t show if you were AP drained, countered and locked down, or how you avoided those attempts.
SW have those utilities that other dps don't have.
Spoiler:
Image
SW’s overall damage during the test period was with HD applied.
One cleanse can disrupt sorc/bw rotations, making them start over. There's also disruption.
Skirmish SW isn’t significantly affected by dodge or cleanse.
Remember, there’s no counter to it.

This test was for ST damage on a dummy, but currently, Skirmish SW is built with an AoE tree.
Maybe that’s why they gave it armor penetration to match other AoE class DPS numbers,
but it seems like a simplistic change focusing only on board numbers.

The effort to give every DPS a warband spot is commendable, but raising all DPS classes to match the top DPS numbers disrupts balance.
It ends up being a mess that drives away new players.
Anyway, I’ll discuss this topic more later.

Considering the AoE tree, the damage for ST with CD free, HD, no counter, and survivability included seems OP.

When I compared it to sorc/bw, I didn’t mean to focus solely on burst damage.
To clarify, I meant the damage method is similar, being DoT+DD.

I wanted to test SH Quick Shooting too, but I don't have a fort weapon, and I’ve forgot the rotation.
SH Quick Shooting isn’t AoE; it’s a small-scale tree, which suits hit-and-run skirmish.
For SW, the small-scale tree has become Assault.

Forcing an AoE tree onto SW has made it slightly OP, making it excellent in the hands of an average player and OP in the hands of an excellent player.
The main question is whether Skirmish should remain an AoE damage tree comparable to WL/Slayer/BW.
I’m against the idea of simultaneously buffing all AoE DPS classes to the highest tier, so I think some damage adjustments are necessary.

Maintain morale drain as an AoE utility and make Barrage usable with no cooldown and a 2-second cast time during VoN, so it doesn't rely on SM's WW skill.
Alternatively, implement it with a percentage chance like the mara morale drain.

While I'm discussing the SW trees, let's take it a bit further.
It makes more sense for Assault to become a close-range AoE tree, and for Skirmish to be a hit-and-run tree, like SH's Quick Shooting or the original Skirmish.
In a way, this means returning to the original design, which has now become a radical suggestion.
Assault should be given an AoE role, mirroring Mara Monstro and similar to Squig Armor.
The armor buff from Assault seems more fitting for an AoE tree.
Honestly, the idea of making Assault SW like WE-elf mdps was more of an experimental move, IMHO.
Monstro Mara and Assault SW could achieve almost dps tank-level defense.

Lastly, if you ask the SWs enjoying the current state whether they’d choose armor penetration or a range buff, what do you think they’d say?
They’d choose the better option, but with reverse psychology, they might choose the opposite. Trust no one in this world.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS6, BW6, WP8, WH7, IB8, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm6, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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Nekkma
Posts: 729

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#8 » Tue May 28, 2024 9:36 am

Based on your own numbers don't you think it is a bit excessive to nerf dps and burst with roughly 25 percent? Especially since your test already show considerable less burst on the SW compard to sorc.
Nekkma / Hjortron
Zatakk
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Fenris78
Posts: 795

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#9 » Tue May 28, 2024 10:02 am

So Sorc is capable of oneshotting someone in BiS gear within 3s timeframe, while SW is doing half the burst...

Skirmish is already in a bad state, especially after Split Arrow tactic has been nerfed again (returned to the -20% damage).

And I dont think assault should be AoE spec, since it's somehow filling the gap from Destru classes ST capabilities (Mara, SH, WE, Sorc, a bit less for Choppa), while everyone Order Side is playing AoE specs...

As about choosing between more range or ArPen tactic, honestly I cant say ; SW got plenty WS but need to be in Assault stance for that, and if you play range/kite you already have to sacrifice damage for that (ST skirm is about 60% of assault DPS, with absolutely no burst capabilities).

So either with more range or more ArPen, in skirmish mode you absolutely wont kill anyone who knows barely how to play.
Skirmish being actually the weakest ST spec of any class, saving some PUG killing with full crit build... and that's pretty much all.

Everdin
Posts: 591

Re: SW - Powerful Draw is too much

Post#10 » Tue May 28, 2024 10:28 am

anarchypark wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 8:53 am This is a dummy test, and I picked the best result. Sorc tried less than 10 times, while SW tried many times.
Before you open it, remember, I already mentioned, "Don't just compare burst and periodic damage numbers."
Even if you score 100k on the board, if your team gets 0 kills, you haven't fulfilled your DPS role.
Conversely, even if you only score 6k but kill the healer, you've done your DPS job.
There are many factors that the board numbers don't capture and show.
Mainly positioning, maneuvering, CC, targeting, countering, etc.
The numbers don’t reflect the moment, timing, and the target you chose.
They don’t show if you were AP drained, countered and locked down, or how you avoided those attempts.
SW have those utilities that other dps don't have.
Spoiler:
Image
SW’s overall damage during the test period was with HD applied.
One cleanse can disrupt sorc/bw rotations, making them start over. There's also disruption.
Skirmish SW isn’t significantly affected by dodge or cleanse.
Remember, there’s no counter to it.

This test was for ST damage on a dummy, but currently, Skirmish SW is built with an AoE tree.
Maybe that’s why they gave it armor penetration to match other AoE class DPS numbers,
but it seems like a simplistic change focusing only on board numbers.

The effort to give every DPS a warband spot is commendable, but raising all DPS classes to match the top DPS numbers disrupts balance.
It ends up being a mess that drives away new players.
Anyway, I’ll discuss this topic more later.

Considering the AoE tree, the damage for ST with CD free, HD, no counter, and survivability included seems OP.

When I compared it to sorc/bw, I didn’t mean to focus solely on burst damage.
To clarify, I meant the damage method is similar, being DoT+DD.

I wanted to test SH Quick Shooting too, but I don't have a fort weapon, and I’ve forgot the rotation.
SH Quick Shooting isn’t AoE; it’s a small-scale tree, which suits hit-and-run skirmish.
For SW, the small-scale tree has become Assault.

Forcing an AoE tree onto SW has made it slightly OP, making it excellent in the hands of an average player and OP in the hands of an excellent player.
The main question is whether Skirmish should remain an AoE damage tree comparable to WL/Slayer/BW.
I’m against the idea of simultaneously buffing all AoE DPS classes to the highest tier, so I think some damage adjustments are necessary.

Maintain morale drain as an AoE utility and make Barrage usable with no cooldown and a 2-second cast time during VoN, so it doesn't rely on SM's WW skill.
Alternatively, implement it with a percentage chance like the mara morale drain.

While I'm discussing the SW trees, let's take it a bit further.
It makes more sense for Assault to become a close-range AoE tree, and for Skirmish to be a hit-and-run tree, like SH's Quick Shooting or the original Skirmish.
In a way, this means returning to the original design, which has now become a radical suggestion.
Assault should be given an AoE role, mirroring Mara Monstro and similar to Squig Armor.
The armor buff from Assault seems more fitting for an AoE tree.
Honestly, the idea of making Assault SW like WE-elf mdps was more of an experimental move, IMHO.
Monstro Mara and Assault SW could achieve almost dps tank-level defense.

Lastly, if you ask the SWs enjoying the current state whether they’d choose armor penetration or a range buff, what do you think they’d say?
They’d choose the better option, but with reverse psychology, they might choose the opposite. Trust no one in this world.
Source: Trust me bro

You post some puppet numbers without any context on gear, rotation etc.

I did some tests on my own an based on the ttk there were similarities, the issue here is my sorc and bw are 50+ & 60+ with **** gear, roughly 900 int and very low plan of what I'm doing since I did not play them for a long time. I could also reproduce the numbers for the sw (80+ and close do BIS), but only with a lot of crit luck (but that matches what you said).

However, even with this differences the 3s burst was noticeable higher on the BW/Sorc side. And what you said is partial true, the overall damage in sc or on dummy are worthless and don't show any significant information, BUT the burst is the go to stat. The burst show how much damage you can bring on point and THATS the thing you can take from there. The rest you mentioned "Mainly positioning, maneuvering, CC, targeting, countering, etc." are all correct but does not bring anything on the table for this discussion, if you play your sorc bad you kill nothing, if you play your sw bad you kill nothing.
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