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Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

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GONDOR
Posts: 57

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#61 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:56 am

My biggest criticism of the balance effort is that it seems to focus too hard on balance, and it doesn't seem to put any thought into on what makes classes fun to play.

It's all well and good to adjust skills and co-efficients for balance, but it won't make people play the game. Imbalance will drive people away, sure, but not being fun to play will have the same-but-worse effect. People will play RoR if it's slightly imbalanced, but still fun. It's an issue when it isn't fun - at that point no amount of balance will make people play.

Some of the recent changes IMO, have not had this in view. It's often trading something that made a class fun to play, for something that, on-paper, improves the meta, but costs the class a lot more.

Such changes won't make people play the game more, nor will it improve the class player count - if it's not fun, why bother?

Also, a class doesn't have to be OP to be fun, in case someone is thinking that.

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Farrul
Posts: 290

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#62 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:08 am

^^ That's a good point. Balancing for the sake of balance has taken away a lot of joy from many games. Sometimes there is a fine line between something that is strong vs overpowered. I also would like to add that the recent standardization effort seen in tanks is imho not a positive direction for balancing. Classes should imho feel unique even when it comes to direct mechanical mirror classes. Otherwise that little touch of creativity that makes these games fun to play could be endangered.


Recently to give a few examples, was it necessary to add a CD to Wall of darting Steel? Crippling not only the main source of defence but also for sure making it a lot less interesting to play? Was it necessary to add a CD to pounce/loner when this ability had already seen a huge nerf to its range previously.

Why could not BO keep THC available with a sword/board, was that ever considered overpowered by anyone or was it an effort again towards standardization.

Stuff like these might seem acceptable when looking at it short-term but there will come a time when the player looks back at what the game used to offer in terms of gameplay options/creativity and compares it to what it has become, this is when interest is lost and players quit. So yes balancing for the sake of it can be very risky, especially with a small community.

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Paxsanarion
Posts: 304

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#63 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:40 am

Great Posts Gondor and Farrul…..I nominate you both for the Balance team :-)
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Nekkma
Posts: 723

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#64 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:50 am

GONDOR wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:56 am My biggest criticism of the balance effort is that it seems to focus too hard on balance, and it doesn't seem to put any thought into on what makes classes fun to play.
Yes, this is a long standing problem. Signature skills that make classes fun and unique should be identified and not be touched. For example, revert nerfs to run away, pounce, thc and wods. There are probably many more examples but these are the ones i think of based on the classes I play.
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nat3s
Posts: 450

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#65 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:15 am

Phantasm wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 4:53 pm
Hazmy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:50 pm
We also hear you all, and we would also like to open up more communication about Balance, creating a brand new forum, expanding the Balance Group, but we would like to return to this topic at a later date, as we want to approach this carefully to make sure we add to the group’s efficiency and not hinder it, as we’d like to keep to our regular updates and maintain a steady pace towards our long-term goals. In the meantime, your continued support and feedback is greatly appreciated!

Little suggestion: can we add amount of rr80 characters and highlight the highest rr class to a post someone make on said forum? Like in example:

Image

That would effectively distinguish trolls and forum warriors from actual players.

Careful, last thing you'd want is decision making based on an appeal to authority logical fallacy. Good ideas in a subjective realm can come from all angles and experiences.
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
rr7x AM, Choppa, WL, WH, WE, BG

nat3s
Posts: 450

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#66 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:18 am

Kragg wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:40 pm No praise for the work Gravord's put in?

What work is that? Not a facetious question, I see his name mentioned a lot and credited with balance decisions, but seems to be no evidence he is involved at all given the confirmation this post provides in terms of the actual team members.
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
rr7x AM, Choppa, WL, WH, WE, BG

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Nekkma
Posts: 723

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#67 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:34 am

nat3s wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:18 am
Kragg wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:40 pm No praise for the work Gravord's put in?

What work is that? Not a facetious question, I see his name mentioned a lot and credited with balance decisions, but seems to be no evidence he is involved at all given the confirmation this post provides in terms of the actual team members.
I think this may be a bit ironic based on the long statement he posted yesterday (in the form of a google doc). As that thread got deleted I wont post it here but I have seen it circulated on various discords so should be easy to find if you are interested.
Nekkma / Hjortron
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hogun
Posts: 293

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#68 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:03 am

GONDOR wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:56 am My biggest criticism of the balance effort is that it seems to focus too hard on balance, and it doesn't seem to put any thought into on what makes classes fun to play.

It's all well and good to adjust skills and co-efficients for balance, but it won't make people play the game. Imbalance will drive people away, sure, but not being fun to play will have the same-but-worse effect. People will play RoR if it's slightly imbalanced, but still fun. It's an issue when it isn't fun - at that point no amount of balance will make people play.

Some of the recent changes IMO, have not had this in view. It's often trading something that made a class fun to play, for something that, on-paper, improves the meta, but costs the class a lot more.

Such changes won't make people play the game more, nor will it improve the class player count - if it's not fun, why bother?

Also, a class doesn't have to be OP to be fun, in case someone is thinking that.
Bravo ! c 'est exactement comme cela qu'il faudrait avoir la vision de la balance !

Bravo! That's exactly how we should see the balance!
My video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65aHhb4kCJU
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Lisutaris
Posts: 65

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#69 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:20 am

Nekkma wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:34 am
nat3s wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:18 am
Kragg wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:40 pm No praise for the work Gravord's put in?

What work is that? Not a facetious question, I see his name mentioned a lot and credited with balance decisions, but seems to be no evidence he is involved at all given the confirmation this post provides in terms of the actual team members.
I think this may be a bit ironic based on the long statement he posted yesterday (in the form of a google doc). As that thread got deleted I wont post it here but I have seen it circulated on various discords so should be easy to find if you are interested.
Well... deleting it wasn't the best reaction on it for sure. Agree'd. Reminds me of the "it's afraid" meme...
Why not just lock it and respond, problem solved. The "if it's 1s on the internet it will be there forever " rule isn't there for nothing :D

If the content is true even if biased by one (his) pov, no response to it or to just sweep it under the rug ... isn't maybe the best idea. I mean, why not just give someone credit where credit is due for what he has done. I don't believe he was a saint but I am sure neither are you (everyone in here tbh :) ) Could have been handled with less dumpster fire now. But we are getting offtopic I guess.

Let's wish the current balance team (I want to push the idea of calling them "Dalen and his 2 dudes" or "Dalen and his homies" -> let's make this canon!) best of luck and support them as good as we can as a playerbase. Doesn't really matter who is in there tbh. (for the majority of the playerbase, including me. As long as you try to balance fair and square for both faction and are doing a good job.)

That's what we should focus on now, as players on this server. What's going on behind the scenes (internal relationship wise) is only mildly interesting to most of us anway.
Last edited by Lisutaris on Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Sinisterror
Posts: 838

Re: Post Ability Rework Balancing Roadmap - Developer Update March 2024.

Post#70 » Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:21 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n9wm3uHmgk

Just watch this pls and at around 26 second mark, you will see WL dropping from a bridge and pouncing on someone to not take fall dmg and pet is there with him not disappearing=) THIS WAS SO MUCH FUN.

RoR.builders - White Lion And build like this was possible, not in ror loner and crit dmg and revenge is restricted because? Who knows why but doesnt really matter because the why is wrong or right, it doesnt make the game more fun and diverse just restricts and takes something away
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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