Crit Reduction

[GodlessCrom]

Could there be built in diminishing returns with crit? And do we know for a fact that chance to be crit and chance to crit stack additively? Could be the game goes about calculating that interaction in a more complex manner than simply (20% chance to be crit) + (20% chance crit)=40% chance to be crit.

[roadkillrobin]

If there is, it would probobly a good idea to tell people about it since people invest quit alot of time constructing their builds, farming talismans and theorycrafting etz.

[GodlessCrom]

I agree

[lefze]

Seeing as even class balancing is now done without including changes in patchnotes, I can't really see more transparency about mechanics happening anytime soon. It's a shame, but as it is now people have to spend hours to test the simplest thing when it comes to combat formulas etc. Because of the insane amount of data you need to get any kind of accuracy.

[GodlessCrom]

Which is an absolute bummer. We need ElitistJerks to open up a RoR section so all the theorycraft grognards will have a place to do their work in peace :p

[Dabbart]

We need to test it heavily. The last tests we ran(my guild and Roadkillrobin) was quite awhile ago. War grim and others have come out and said explicitly that chance to be Crit can go into negatives months after we ran our initial tests. It’s possible our old tests are moot now.

But, previously we did test with RR, ini, and items that decrease Crit. I had a cumulative -20%+ and was still Crit with a 1% chance via weapon. I was also Crit via tactic Crit chance increase.

If I ever login and have someone to test with I’ll see about trying these again. But there are a lot of variables to try out... also, just because you can get your chance to be Crit to negative, doesn’t inherently mean you can drop their Crit chance to 0%. There might be a minimum it can be lowered too...

[Skullgrin]

The formulas that you guys are looking for seem to be in this forum thread. Specifically in the 5th post.
viewtopic.php?t=879

critical hit rates are affected by defenders initiative vs attackers rank, in the following way:
(7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10

you then add any crit chance modifiers from the attacker, and subtract any crit chance reduction the defender has:
((7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10)+(<attacker crit bonus> - <defender crit reduction>)

again, important things to note:
in ALL cases, your tooltip will always show the ATTACKER values, as (7.5*<YOUR effective rank>+50).

any ability that says "will almost always" or "virtually", means +/- 100% (depending if it's "will almost always block/parry/critically hit" would add 100%. or "is virtually undefendable" would subtract 100%)

any absolutes such as "you will never" or "undefendable" generally mean multiply the end result (example: for healer sovereign 8 piece bonus, multiply the complete crit chance formula by 0)

The thread seems to be covering how it worked on live, however I don't think that this has been changed too much, if at all. I hope this helps to further inform this discussion, as I've found the whole thing very interesting.

[Axerker]

Spoiler:

The formulas that you guys are looking for seem to be in this forum thread. Specifically in the 5th post.
viewtopic.php?t=879

critical hit rates are affected by defenders initiative vs attackers rank, in the following way:
(7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10

you then add any crit chance modifiers from the attacker, and subtract any crit chance reduction the defender has:
((7.5*<attacker effective rank>+50)/<defender initiative>/10)+(<attacker crit bonus> - <defender crit reduction>)

again, important things to note:
in ALL cases, your tooltip will always show the ATTACKER values, as (7.5*<YOUR effective rank>+50).

any ability that says "will almost always" or "virtually", means +/- 100% (depending if it's "will almost always block/parry/critically hit" would add 100%. or "is virtually undefendable" would subtract 100%)

any absolutes such as "you will never" or "undefendable" generally mean multiply the end result (example: for healer sovereign 8 piece bonus, multiply the complete crit chance formula by 0)

The thread seems to be covering how it worked on live, however I don't think that this has been changed too much, if at all. I hope this helps to further inform this discussion, as I've found the whole thing very interesting.

If that is actually the formula, then Initiative really doesn't need to go above 35-70.

[(7.5 Base * Player Rank_40) + 50] / Initiative_35 / 10
[(7.5 * 40) + 50] / 35 / 10
350 / 35 / 10 = 1% Crit at 35 Initiative (0.5% Crit at 70 Initiative, 0.33% at 105 Initiative, etc.)
1% Crit Chance is perfectly fine to not put any points into Initiative (35)
Even with 1050 Initiative, you'd have a 0.0333% chance to Crit. So it really isn't worth any investment at all - on the Initiative stat.

That 1% (at 35 Initiative) then gets added to their bonus Crit and deduct your Reduced Chance to be Crit (i.e. Futile Strikes, Gear, Tactics, etc.).

So, assuming I'm understanding this correctly, Futile Strikes, Gear, and Tactics heavily outweigh any influence of Initiative, correct?

Edit:

I think the formula may be wrong, just missing a parenthesis. The denominator may be (Initiative / 10), rather than (x / Initiative / 10).

If that's the case, having 35 Initiative would give them a 100% Crit chance:

[(7.5 * 40) + 50] / (35 / 10)
[350] / (3.5) = 100% Crit

So 350 Initiative would be 10% Crit chance, which seems more likely.

[Dabbart]

The 2nd is correct. And the old formula isn’t inherently correct. Nor how the math used to work. Asarael stated years ago that in RoR there are no negative numbers. Recently, it has been stated that chance to be Crit can go to negative(by wargrim I think). That alone is a major difference.

End of the day.... actual testing on multiple groupings of variables, for how Attacker gains chance to Crit and how defender gains reduced chance to be Crit, as here are tons of different ways that may or may not stack differently. And each test needs to be performed a few 100 times at minimum. Then we can talk how it actually works vs how it is “supposed to”

[anarchypark]

azarael's statement.
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=19218&start=40
i think
crit reduction in .getstat and init value in character sheet work together.
i run heavy crit reduction build.
hit by crit is rare. only exception is init debuff + sorc.