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The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

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Zxul
Posts: 714

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#91 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:48 pm

Toggle wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:29 pm
Zxul wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:55 pm
Toggle wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:50 pm
Spoiler:
I agree, DoKs are trash...hahaha!
On my dok with aoe detaunt I can survive 2 wls burst on me=keep healing the team. Remind me, can you do that on your zealot?
I don't know, my positioning isn't bad enough to have two WLs jump me...
In city, where they specifically target/assist healers?
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Toggle
Posts: 112

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#92 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:44 pm

Zxul wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:48 pm
Toggle wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:29 pm
Zxul wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:55 pm


On my dok with aoe detaunt I can survive 2 wls burst on me=keep healing the team. Remind me, can you do that on your zealot?
I don't know, my positioning isn't bad enough to have two WLs jump me...
In city, where they specifically target/assist healers?
You do know I'm just giving you a hard time, right?
Zealot - 40/7X
Shaman 40/6X
Magus - 40/4X
KotBS - 40/5X

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Twyxx
Posts: 803

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#93 » Sun May 17, 2020 6:38 pm

He do be flexing in every thread doe... :dab:
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emiliorv
Posts: 416

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#94 » Sun May 17, 2020 6:45 pm

Spoiler:
Toggle wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:50 pm
emiliorv wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:03 pm
Toggle wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:51 pm
Spoiler:
Excellent point. I hadn't considered that I was carrying the DoKs on my 25pct bonus...hahaha!
usually ze/dok are best heal combo => ze bring abs procs to grp and +25% heal buff while dok bring grp heal spam+grp hot...who wins in numbers?? its obvious.

This dont mean that zealot dont bring real heal numbers...they do, but dok have easy to get higher heal tables. thats all, they dont bring anything else (grp cleanse when no heavy pressure) while ze/rp bring much more utility (IMO).
I agree, DoKs are trash...hahaha!
I didnt said that, not even close....i was only reasoning why they have a easier time capping top healing numbers.

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Toggle
Posts: 112

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#95 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:55 pm

Omegus wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 pm
Perspective: RR82 Zealot, mostly pug and organised WB play in ORvR and Cities. Don't take this as being good advice for 6v6 or for anything other than the Zealot career.

For ORVR wounds is a no-brainer. You will be hit by every kind of damage from every source and by stacking armour you make yourself weaker to BWs and Engis who during any form of siege (attacking and defending) will be your main source of damage received.

For cities things are very different. The biggest threat to the Zealot is the order melee train (which works very well for the few groups able to actually pull it off). The composition of this melee train varies but it always involves at least one White Lion for the super strong armour debuff. The BW are usually bombing and I'm not standing near them and the Engineers... lol. Slayers, IBs, ASW (scary), WHs, etc, all form part of the train. To work out whether I would be better off stacking wounds or armour taismans in city I did a spreadsheet to work out what kinds of armour mitigation each class is likely going to do against me and worked out my EHP vs physical damage with armour talismans and then with wounds taismans. Wounds talismans won every time except vs something that had about 350 WS and no extra way of ignoring armour (I consider this to be the "baseline"). Note all calculations assumed I was debuffed by a WL because I likely will be.

This is the results: https://i.imgur.com/tx0ki4a.png. If anyone spots any errors in calculations please let me know so I can amend it. I *think* everything is correct but there are always things in this game that can catch you out. In addition, I know very little about ASW so had to piece together the spec based from Fenryl's posts (Assault stance plus double WS tactic). I have no idea if they stack extra WS on top as well; it seems they could come close to the cap if they wanted to.

The other thing to factor into this is that while damage mitigation increases your EHP, it can also be used to increase your effective heals. Based on a LOT of experience with city sieges I've found that the wounds + healing from me and other sources is enough to keep me alive long enough to force the enemy to switch target (especially if I'm kiting them away from the rest of their WB) or just keep me alive full stop. Usually when I die it's because I got hit by so many people that no amount of healing will help and/or the WB is wiping anyway (or I was half asleep and f**ked up... the usual reason tbh). The wounds also help out with getting tagged by a BW aoe, WH bullets, the token Swordmastrer deciding to hit me, etc.

The difference between armour talis and wounds talis is so small that even if it was a slight advantage for the armour talis it's still not IMO worth paying 4x-5x the price per talisman for a set of +180s.
Just wondering if you think anything has changed with the changes to morale in oRvR. Would be very curious to hear your take on it.
Zealot - 40/7X
Shaman 40/6X
Magus - 40/4X
KotBS - 40/5X

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Xergon
Posts: 557

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#96 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:17 pm

Yea, now Armor gets even more value than Wounds, as Healer u want to be 7.5k+ wounds and 3.3k+ armor, anything more is good bonus.
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Omegus
Posts: 339

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#97 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:29 pm

Toggle wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:55 pm
Just wondering if you think anything has changed with the changes to morale in oRvR. Would be very curious to hear your take on it.
Honestly for a Zealot I don't think it changes much at all. Personally I'm rarely if ever being hit by insta-death levels of morale (the rest of the WB going in first? they are). It'll either be the usual pressure of damage from random sources (BW/Engi AOEs) or being picked out as a primary target for a melee train or Engi snipe assist. I'm one of the last to go in anywhere. Same applies for cities too - everyone else is getting morale on them (unless I'm positioned like an idiot... which happens) and my biggest source of incoming damage is the melee train.

I'm more interested to see what the final state of the SW will be. RSW and ASW both got buffs and the old ASW was already a pain for us...

If anything I think toughness builds became far more viable (assuming you can still maintain good heal crit) as they will mitigate all non-morale damage and their big counter of morale damage just got nerfed.
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Kobra
Posts: 102

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#98 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:58 pm

With the new SW Meta, and SW+WL+SM magical combo meta they put in.

Pay more attention to Heal Crit. As most of what you will face now won't be impacted by your defenses (Dodge/Disrupt, etc). So with big heals, and lots of heal crits, it's going to be your ticket to survive.

Toughness seems to start to mean more now with the SW meta going on, since their stuff seems heavily impacted by toughness and every battle has legions of them. Armor seems less and less useful as time goes on. I was really struggling to figure out a way to survive the SW onslaught, and re-specced like 8 times and tested. Honestly, toughness and heal crit seem to have had the biggest impact and I don't feel SW's are that much of a threat now.

Especially with shaman tactic to make the cleanse also heal you in addition to cleanse+shield. Combined with heal crit, that cleanse can sometimes pop a 1000 heal and 300 shield on you, giving more time for your other (now critting) hots to tick, and you can throw an AP debuff on them. I know heal crit is harder for non-shaman, so I'd probably start looking into toughness more.

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Kobra
Posts: 102

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#99 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:16 pm

Toggle wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:55 pm
The difference between armour talis and wounds talis is so small that even if it was a slight advantage for the armour talis it's still not IMO worth paying 4x-5x the price per talisman for a set of +180s.
Just wondering if you think anything has changed with the changes to morale in oRvR. Would be very curious to hear your take on it.
[/quote]

This is correct IMO as well. Wounds+HealCrit/Power is going to better in the majority of cases than stacking Armor, because there is just too much armor mitigation out there, and too many classes who will burst you down regardless of your armor. Wounds+HealCrit is surprisingly effective. Then add in detaunts, some toughness, and you will probably live longer, and make a bigger impact on the battle. IMO.

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Toggle
Posts: 112

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#100 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:59 pm

Omegus wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:29 pm
Toggle wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:55 pm
Just wondering if you think anything has changed with the changes to morale in oRvR. Would be very curious to hear your take on it.
Honestly for a Zealot I don't think it changes much at all. Personally I'm rarely if ever being hit by insta-death levels of morale (the rest of the WB going in first? they are). It'll either be the usual pressure of damage from random sources (BW/Engi AOEs) or being picked out as a primary target for a melee train or Engi snipe assist. I'm one of the last to go in anywhere. Same applies for cities too - everyone else is getting morale on them (unless I'm positioned like an idiot... which happens) and my biggest source of incoming damage is the melee train.

I'm more interested to see what the final state of the SW will be. RSW and ASW both got buffs and the old ASW was already a pain for us...

If anything I think toughness builds became far more viable (assuming you can still maintain good heal crit) as they will mitigate all non-morale damage and their big counter of morale damage just got nerfed.
Interesting thoughts. How would a zealot go about stacking toughness? I assume we're keeping the renown points in heal crit and futile strikes. Going the talisman route would mean we're losing out on wounds though, and I'd be hard pressed to give up the AP proc from Vanquisher. So, I'm not sure that I'd be willing to mix sets to try and stack toughness bonuses.
Zealot - 40/7X
Shaman 40/6X
Magus - 40/4X
KotBS - 40/5X

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