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Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

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metroid24
Posts: 7

Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#1 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:36 pm

Hello, i am an avid Warhammer player, have played every class on both sides at max level both on live and on here, but feel the need to open a VERY important discussion here. I am sure i am stepping on a few toes here, especially order toes because i am sure their classes are "fine" and dont need to be tweaked, in fact they are underpowered and need to be buffed /sarcasm off.

Let me start off by saying the Devs, GM's have all done a terrific job giving us a totally FREE game, that we so dearly love, and working on it in their own FREE time. I can speak for alot of people here, we are forever thankful for this game. There have been alot of improvements from the game that was in Live, that is incredible! Class tweaks, Forts, Gear. It is all awesome.

The continued class balance remains a struggle and i totally get not every post needs to be heeded and every cry or whine needs to be acknowledged. After all, if the Devs do that, then every time someone cries something is expected. Now, everyone has their life and not everyone can spend hours per day playing the game, seeing what is going on. They rely on Feedback, GOOD honest constructive Feedback. The people putting many hours into this game, be it daily or weekly, getting in Warbands or 6 mans, playing Scen's, open RvR, Keep sieges, Forts, Cities etc, have a very good idea how the classes function.

Now i come to this, it has been mentioned by the powers that be that Classes should remain Unique, and keep their identity, and never be truly 100% mirrored. Slayers should not have the same skills as Choppas, Engineers and Maguses and etc. We can all agree on this, it is super cool that classes have unique skills but i think we also have to look at how those skills affect Warband play, 6man play, Large scale AoE play. Because it will impact differently and their utilities can be boosted by other classes to Greater effect ie "Impending Doom boosted by Whispering Winds from Swordmaster being able to tab targets and apply it at will and having it tick per second continuously while also not being parryable".

There are a few points worth mentioning here that are really affecting the community , especially the Destruction side : Let us break it down Class vs Class

The ability Rampage : a 20 second buff that makes all your attacks undefendable, as a speccable skill, with no counterpart on Destro side, is simply too scale tipping. We get it, Crazy Dwarf Slayers identity, mad with rage and no fear, should be able to wreak havoc. Class identity is GOOD, but should never be Game Breaking. Having Rampage, ID, and Shatter Limbs on one Class is a bit much. You can argue all you want, you can say, oh just Shatter it, oh Choppa has a pull, but put a AoE train of Guarded and properly Healed slayers together and having them all Rampage, ID, SL is just too too much. Shatter Limbs, great, keep it, Impending Doom, powerful, but keep it. Class Identity, but Rampage needs to be removed plain and Simple. Make it ST and same as the Choppa. See it in AoE fight context, or a Fort defence context, your slayers cannot be shattered because they are out of range/not in line of sight, but they are dropping everyone with undefendable attacks at 70% armor penetration with Invader+. Enough is enough on that...

Another strong point is that while Order is heavy on the Ranged classes, there are several Order classes with a ranged knockdown , and Destro with none (bar the silly Mara kd that requires a blue moon disrupt to activate). The Ranged Squig herder is going to need a ranged knockdown in order to atleast somewhat balance this. There is also no argueing on this either, Destro simply do not have it and SHOULD have atleast one proper ranged knockdown class! Remember SW is 100 ft range!

Now they did alot to balance a few classes, SW is a bit more powerful than it was before, and Squig herder they are working on. We are not just picking apart each class and pitting them against eachother, we are talking about LARGER scale utility as well!

-Slayer vs Choppa : Slayer is obviously BROKEN with Rampage especially in 6 vs 6 with 2 players or multiple slayer stacks in WB/large scale fights, 5 sec damage block morale vs Choppas absorb, especially in Warband or 6 vs 6 play that Slayer 5 sec parryblockdodge all is superior....Inevitable Doom (heavy aoe stack damage) vs Get to Da Choppa (AoE pull) okay to keep classes unique?
-Mara and White Lion : are more balanced now, Mara slightly better defensive while WL better ST burst
- Healer classes fairly balanced while still having their unique quirks~
-Tank classes are fairly balanced : remember we cannot and dont WANT to achieve 100% balance, this is WAR! We just want to make it reasonable for both sides.
-WE and WH : the one is more offensive and the other has more defensive skills mainly Witch Brew vs the 100% parry buff, okay? They are both not game breaking on large scale fights and 6mans both classes have a solid use.
SH vs SW - SH more melee aoe dmg focused, SW now decent AoE damage much better than before, great ST as an Assault SW, and better ranged than before. Melee SH is fine, no need buff or nerf but Ranged SH needs a ranged knockdown ( Destro have 0 long ranged kd vs Orders 2).
Magus vs Engineer - broken - Engineer did not need that last buff with the Snipe 2 sec Gunblast 1 sec tactic. They were already good aoe damage and good ST damage without that, now Sniper squads can simply delete targets and even a solo Engineer can timestamp someone alot faster. Magus either need similar tactic or Engineer to remove that Snipe Gunblast tactic. Engineer has cannonsmash m3 and Magus have nothing even close to as powerful, Guaranteed kill Snipe > Gunblast > Canonsmash > Focused Fire. Control, Alt, DELETED! Magus do not have that kind of quick burst....
Sorc vs BW - Sorc slightly better on ST with Gloomburst tactic, BW more utility and AoE but BW especially outshines in large scale AoE fights, Fort and Keep defenses / Funnels with superior Rain of Fire with Fan the Flames (increased radius on Rain of Fire) and Wildfire (DoT procs from Rain of Fire aoe). Bright Wizards are BROKEN and easymode to play for Fort/Keeps/Funnels simply because RoF hits hard but better than Sorcs because of increased radius on RoF and the DoT proc hits HARD. They are hitting more targets and doing way more damage than a Sorc doing Pit of Shades with no radius increaser or dot proc......that is simply BROKEN. I could stand at any fort with a BW and a pocket heal and just get massive kills with that one ability? Funnel Power, RoF, procs from Flames of Ruin AND a hard hitting DoT all hitting from one ability.....

So there you have it : While MOST classes are fairly unique and have their own quirks, the realms are quite balanced EXCEPT for Slayers with Rampage, BWs in keeps/forts/funnels with Rain of Fire easymode farm, Magus vs Engineer ST, and Ranged Squig herder needing a slight buff on damage and a ranged knockdown to be useful in RvR/Groups as a Ranged DPS.

Devs i know you want to avoid this conversation but it has to be put out there, if you played both sides frequently, you know this to be true. If you played Destro side especially, you know this to be true. Melee Squig Herder was overpowered with the triple dmg boost tactics, it was nerfed. AoE Marauder was too powerful , it was nerfed as well. Now it is time to do something good for the health of our server. Double Slayer premades, you know you are indomitable, nothing can touch you. You KNOW this to be true, you have milked it and enjoyed every second. But it is time.....

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Orgruk
Posts: 167

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#2 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:44 pm

Image
Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
In my opinion next round of changes should.... re-tune of Choppa's 1h AOE abilities vs the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities

Image

Everdin
Posts: 36

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#3 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:53 pm

In the beginning of the text this looks like: "Hey, i played both sides, let's really try to put all hate by side and check what we can do on both sides to get balance"

And then:
1- NERF ORDER
2- NERF ORDER
3- NERF ORDER

So at last a wall of text with same destro complaints and no really focus on balance.

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Gurf
Posts: 457

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#4 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:01 pm

So you have have all lvl 40's on both sides and you only complain about what Order has, yeah right! How about looking at the synergy of the classes overall instead of class mirrors, eg Destro has an extra cooldown decreaser, they have an accessible aoe heal debuff an accessible aoe knockdown, while Order doesn't. How about the fact that Shammy had 10 times the Survivability than any other class in the game? I know I am bias towards Order but your Destro bias is obvious here despite you trying to mask it.

You know Rain of Fire doesn't stack right? So if you can't heal through ROF your healers are frankly pathetic, its weak aoe. SH has quite enough CC and already has a knockdown, giving it more CC would be insane, you are better off just removing it from BW if its that much of a worry, I doubt most BW would even care as its only useful in Solo roam.

Overall this just looks like an elaborate Rampage complaint, which has been done 100 times already and usually ends up being locked. Rampage is a good skill but what people don't seem to understand is that it is a rage exhaust, so after use your damage is weak, it is a good pug group killer though when you can hit large groups lacking healers, which is what seems to generate all the complaints. Many of the higher rr Order guilds tend to bring more SW these days than Slayers despite the forum hype about how good Slayers are.

Also people are starting to complain about the Bitterstone Thunderers Sniper Squad which is hillarious, they have about 10 Engis all on discord hitting the same target, of course you are going to get killed! but only useful if they can hide behind a keep wall.
Last edited by Gurf on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Oglaf
Posts: 228

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#5 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:05 pm

You can tactic away the exhaust from Slayer. It also last way long than it takes for you to build your mechanic back up.

Just sayin'

And when you have Slayers funneling a Destro trying to push into your keep/fort, it doesn't really matter. The fact of the matter is that it entirely invalidates the entire tank archtype on Destruction. It is just a hilariously broken skill, especially since it isn't even an end-spec ability: it is the very first ability you can get in that tree. Is it really any wonder that Destro loses the majority of objective-based fights? No. Not at all. They have no tanks.

Move it up to be on par with ID and let's see how things change when most Slayers have to pick between the two.

EDIT: Also, RoF on BWs isn't broken. The upped AoE limit in general is. Makes AoE far too potent in Forts/Keeps.
Last edited by Oglaf on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ashenford
Posts: 14

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#6 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:06 pm

Spoiler:
Hello, i am an avid Warhammer player, have played every class on both sides at max level both on live and on here, but feel the need to open a VERY important discussion here. I am sure i am stepping on a few toes here, especially order toes because i am sure their classes are "fine" and dont need to be tweaked, in fact they are underpowered and need to be buffed /sarcasm off.

Let me start off by saying the Devs, GM's have all done a terrific job giving us a totally FREE game, that we so dearly love, and working on it in their own FREE time. I can speak for alot of people here, we are forever thankful for this game. There have been alot of improvements from the game that was in Live, that is incredible! Class tweaks, Forts, Gear. It is all awesome.

The continued class balance remains a struggle and i totally get not every post needs to be heeded and every cry or whine needs to be acknowledged. After all, if the Devs do that, then every time someone cries something is expected. Now, everyone has their life and not everyone can spend hours per day playing the game, seeing what is going on. They rely on Feedback, GOOD honest constructive Feedback. The people putting many hours into this game, be it daily or weekly, getting in Warbands or 6 mans, playing Scen's, open RvR, Keep sieges, Forts, Cities etc, have a very good idea how the classes function.

Now i come to this, it has been mentioned by the powers that be that Classes should remain Unique, and keep their identity, and never be truly 100% mirrored. Slayers should not have the same skills as Choppas, Engineers and Maguses and etc. We can all agree on this, it is super cool that classes have unique skills but i think we also have to look at how those skills affect Warband play, 6man play, Large scale AoE play. Because it will impact differently and their utilities can be boosted by other classes to Greater effect ie "Impending Doom boosted by Whispering Winds from Swordmaster being able to tab targets and apply it at will and having it tick per second continuously while also not being parryable".

There are a few points worth mentioning here that are really affecting the community , especially the Destruction side : Let us break it down Class vs Class

The ability Rampage : a 20 second buff that makes all your attacks undefendable, as a speccable skill, with no counterpart on Destro side, is simply too scale tipping. We get it, Crazy Dwarf Slayers identity, mad with rage and no fear, should be able to wreak havoc. Class identity is GOOD, but should never be Game Breaking. Having Rampage, ID, and Shatter Limbs on one Class is a bit much. You can argue all you want, you can say, oh just Shatter it, oh Choppa has a pull, but put a AoE train of Guarded and properly Healed slayers together and having them all Rampage, ID, SL is just too too much. Shatter Limbs, great, keep it, Impending Doom, powerful, but keep it. Class Identity, but Rampage needs to be removed plain and Simple. Make it ST and same as the Choppa. See it in AoE fight context, or a Fort defence context, your slayers cannot be shattered because they are out of range/not in line of sight, but they are dropping everyone with undefendable attacks at 70% armor penetration with Invader+. Enough is enough on that...

Another strong point is that while Order is heavy on the Ranged classes, there are several Order classes with a ranged knockdown , and Destro with none (bar the silly Mara kd that requires a blue moon disrupt to activate). The Ranged Squig herder is going to need a ranged knockdown in order to atleast somewhat balance this. There is also no argueing on this either, Destro simply do not have it and SHOULD have atleast one proper ranged knockdown class! Remember SW is 100 ft range!

Now they did alot to balance a few classes, SW is a bit more powerful than it was before, and Squig herder they are working on. We are not just picking apart each class and pitting them against eachother, we are talking about LARGER scale utility as well!

-Slayer vs Choppa : Slayer is obviously BROKEN with Rampage especially in 6 vs 6 with 2 players or multiple slayer stacks in WB/large scale fights, 5 sec damage block morale vs Choppas absorb, especially in Warband or 6 vs 6 play that Slayer 5 sec parryblockdodge all is superior....Inevitable Doom (heavy aoe stack damage) vs Get to Da Choppa (AoE pull) okay to keep classes unique?
-Mara and White Lion : are more balanced now, Mara slightly better defensive while WL better ST burst
- Healer classes fairly balanced while still having their unique quirks~
-Tank classes are fairly balanced : remember we cannot and dont WANT to achieve 100% balance, this is WAR! We just want to make it reasonable for both sides.
-WE and WH : the one is more offensive and the other has more defensive skills mainly Witch Brew vs the 100% parry buff, okay? They are both not game breaking on large scale fights and 6mans both classes have a solid use.
SH vs SW - SH more melee aoe dmg focused, SW now decent AoE damage much better than before, great ST as an Assault SW, and better ranged than before. Melee SH is fine, no need buff or nerf but Ranged SH needs a ranged knockdown ( Destro have 0 long ranged kd vs Orders 2).
Magus vs Engineer - broken - Engineer did not need that last buff with the Snipe 2 sec Gunblast 1 sec tactic. They were already good aoe damage and good ST damage without that, now Sniper squads can simply delete targets and even a solo Engineer can timestamp someone alot faster. Magus either need similar tactic or Engineer to remove that Snipe Gunblast tactic. Engineer has cannonsmash m3 and Magus have nothing even close to as powerful, Guaranteed kill Snipe > Gunblast > Canonsmash > Focused Fire. Control, Alt, DELETED! Magus do not have that kind of quick burst....
Sorc vs BW - Sorc slightly better on ST with Gloomburst tactic, BW more utility and AoE but BW especially outshines in large scale AoE fights, Fort and Keep defenses / Funnels with superior Rain of Fire with Fan the Flames (increased radius on Rain of Fire) and Wildfire (DoT procs from Rain of Fire aoe). Bright Wizards are BROKEN and easymode to play for Fort/Keeps/Funnels simply because RoF hits hard but better than Sorcs because of increased radius on RoF and the DoT proc hits HARD. They are hitting more targets and doing way more damage than a Sorc doing Pit of Shades with no radius increaser or dot proc......that is simply BROKEN. I could stand at any fort with a BW and a pocket heal and just get massive kills with that one ability? Funnel Power, RoF, procs from Flames of Ruin AND a hard hitting DoT all hitting from one ability.....

So there you have it : While MOST classes are fairly unique and have their own quirks, the realms are quite balanced EXCEPT for Slayers with Rampage, BWs in keeps/forts/funnels with Rain of Fire easymode farm, Magus vs Engineer ST, and Ranged Squig herder needing a slight buff on damage and a ranged knockdown to be useful in RvR/Groups as a Ranged DPS.

Devs i know you want to avoid this conversation but it has to be put out there, if you played both sides frequently, you know this to be true. If you played Destro side especially, you know this to be true. Melee Squig Herder was overpowered with the triple dmg boost tactics, it was nerfed. AoE Marauder was too powerful , it was nerfed as well. Now it is time to do something good for the health of our server. Double Slayer premades, you know you are indomitable, nothing can touch you. You KNOW this to be true, you have milked it and enjoyed every second. But it is time.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_gypoaf-Bc

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Gurf
Posts: 457

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#7 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:08 pm

Oglaf wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:05 pm
You can tactic away the exhaust from Slayer. It also last way long than it takes for you to build your mechanic back up.
Then you have a lightly armoured mdps on the front line with half resists, not exactly hard to kill

User avatar
Oglaf
Posts: 228

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#8 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:10 pm

Gurf wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:08 pm
Oglaf wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:05 pm
You can tactic away the exhaust from Slayer. It also last way long than it takes for you to build your mechanic back up.
Then you have a lightly armoured mdps on the front line with half resists, not exactly hard to kill
Because lets just ignore that Guard and healing is a thing, shall we?

Look, Rampage is fine in most settings. The problem comes with Keep/Fort pushes. It essentially makes it so Destruction has no tanks. It is a huge, and dare I say, unfair advantage Order has. Almost to the point of hilarity.

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knick
Posts: 59

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#9 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:11 pm

gobbo run tactic Destro 2 Order 0

i can call this also absolut broken and nobody talking about.
i asked some shamys by myself what they fear in Orvr. allways same answer- nothing.
we can play this game all day long.
you cherry picking yourself here some differences and call it broken without evidence. so in the end its not more than your personal meaning based on personal experience not on data and facts
Last edited by knick on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[Kraehenfeld] Knick Wl RR80+

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Oglaf
Posts: 228

Re: Realm Class Balance vs Unique Class Identity

Post#10 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:12 pm

knick wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:11 pm
gobbo run tactic Destro 2 Order 0

i can call this also absolut broken and nobody talking about.
i asked some shamys by myself what they fear in Orvr. allways same answer- nothing.
we can play this game all day long.
you cherry picking yourself here some differences and call it broken.
Because Shammys being good at solo roaming (as are AMs, by the by) totally validates the huge group-based (i.e the main point of the game) advantages of Order.

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