Mara pull is a nice idea but...

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Dezibagel
Posts: 7

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#71 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:33 pm

Hilarious thread.

Disregarding the bugs (double pulls, pulls going through floors, desync etc.) - pulls are one of the few ways to force engagements in choked terrain which is a good thing in my book, and punishing passive play is something that should be encouraged. It's also one of the few mechanics that make fort/keep pushes into something more than just a slapping contest.

If your warband falls apart when one guy gets pulled then that's an issue with your warband. I find the cries that it's some form of griefing to be ridiculous. The reason you do it is exactly the above; oftentimes when you pull and donk the (often overextended and on a dps mind you) leader the entire warband stops moving and turns into a disorganized mess, which makes it a valid and effective tactic. And if you start getting healers pulled... Well by then they're obviously way out of position.

Get a second to make the calls when leader is unable to. Lead on a tank or something that wants to get pulled. Have a plan to rushdown or kite or something beforehand when you do get pulled. Have a solid tank ready, and healers on def target when it's blatantly obvious what's going to happen. Get the people who just want to leech 50ft behind out of your wb.

And yes, the lion pull is dogshet compared to the mara one. But if lion say had the mara pull then you'd concentrate one of the best aoe dmg, the by miles best interrupt, the mobility tool in leap and good tankyness onto a class that's already not exactly undertuned. I'd be cool with Order having a mara pull equiv... If you'd put it on ASW or something to force diversify the mdps comps. On Destro you have the leap on mSH, which is a one-of in a Witch Fasta group, since it doesn't stack well with itself, and lacks interrupt (Shatter Limbs is good, but doesn't have the immediate impact and it's effectiveness is highly reliant on enemies being asleep at the wheel)). you have the Mara for pull, (bugged) interrupt and KD and Choppa for big (overtuned and should get a bit of a nerf imo, but balances the WL madness atm) aoe dmg.
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Gegga
Posts: 94

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#72 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:03 pm

Dezibagel wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:33 pm Hilarious thread.

Disregarding the bugs (double pulls, pulls going through floors, desync etc.) - pulls are one of the few ways to force engagements in choked terrain which is a good thing in my book, and punishing passive play is something that should be encouraged. It's also one of the few mechanics that make fort/keep pushes into something more than just a slapping contest.

If your warband falls apart when one guy gets pulled then that's an issue with your warband. I find the cries that it's some form of griefing to be ridiculous. The reason you do it is exactly the above; oftentimes when you pull and donk the (often overextended and on a dps mind you) leader the entire warband stops moving and turns into a disorganized mess, which makes it a valid and effective tactic. And if you start getting healers pulled... Well by then they're obviously way out of position.

Get a second to make the calls when leader is unable to. Lead on a tank or something that wants to get pulled. Have a plan to rushdown or kite or something beforehand when you do get pulled. Have a solid tank ready, and healers on def target when it's blatantly obvious what's going to happen. Get the people who just want to leech 50ft behind out of your wb.

And yes, the lion pull is dogshet compared to the mara one. But if lion say had the mara pull then you'd concentrate one of the best aoe dmg, the by miles best interrupt, the mobility tool in leap and good tankyness onto a class that's already not exactly undertuned. I'd be cool with Order having a mara pull equiv... If you'd put it on ASW or something to force diversify the mdps comps. On Destro you have the leap on mSH, which is a one-of in a Witch Fasta group, since it doesn't stack well with itself, and lacks interrupt (Shatter Limbs is good, but doesn't have the immediate impact and it's effectiveness is highly reliant on enemies being asleep at the wheel)). you have the Mara for pull, (bugged) interrupt and KD and Choppa for big (overtuned and should get a bit of a nerf imo, but balances the WL madness atm) aoe dmg.
sums it up neatly.
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Detangler
Posts: 993

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#73 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:38 pm

Make WL pull a 2 sec cast with a blue phaser line to the target, too. WL pet insta teleports to target and pulls after cast is done.

Maybe the lol-factor of marauder style pulls will mean less whirly axe WLs in the lakes? I dunno, I've been on a break since the devs decided to neuter IBs for no reason and haven't been experiencing all this hatred for WL aoe proc metas and whatnot....
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
Destro - Mostly Harmless
Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
Order - Most dishonorable

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tazdingo
Posts: 1213

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#74 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:52 pm

Swordmasterror wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:22 pm
Hugatsaga wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:13 pm
Stimpz wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:46 pm

Exactly this!

I don't know where the "nothing is going to happen to me when I'm on a wall" mentality comes from.

Embrace every action that makes a siege more versatile! Like he said, more actions are needed to get people on or off the walls, not less. When an SM jumps on the wall and kicks a handful of people off the walls, I don't think, "nerf! nerf! nerf!", I think, "Man, that was cool!" even if I'm the unlucky one who got kicked.
100% agree.
But for this to happen, the classes need to be more mirrored. Or do you agree that the lion needs to have the power to climb the wall by teleporting? An SH also has the jump of the WL and can spread like an SM... the Order isn't half the mechanics of the Des, just put it on paper and you'll see that...

please assume good faith before instantly diving into this kind of tribalism, remember most people have been around for a very long time and have played plenty of both factions

I was thinking more of a fresh approach, say giving tanks a tactic that lets them bypass posterns but nerfs their stats (maybe a 60 sec 30% snare after using bypass), giving rdps/heals a tactic that lets them reverse the direction of their punts to make a very short range pull and then something for mdps. Then everyone gets a tool to do it but needs to go to some effort to make it work

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Akalukz
Posts: 1604

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#75 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:25 pm

As a mara main for almost always. The currently pull will ignore immunity IF the target doesn't have immunity at the beginning of the channel, but then receives it "during" the channel it will still pull resulting in a double pull/punt type of thing. if that makes sense. It's almost impossible to plan it, it's a bug, happens 1-2 times a gaming session for me, and I pull a lot.

otherwise, terrain / distance / height all play into whether or not a pull works. It can be defended against and can be out ran. If anyone wants to test it I am more than happy to make myself available.
-= Agony =-

Farrul
Posts: 308

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#76 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:04 am

I see 3 options for this highly abusive skill.

1) It need to check vs Parry again. The most exposed targets ( melee) do not typically have high disrupt unless it is a SnB tank holding the line. Leavy the disrupt check to help casters.

2) When interrupted by taunt, should go into cooldown. Tanks taunt it and immediately mara spams it again is cause of much grief.

3) Reduce the pull range to 45 feet.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1274

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#77 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:58 am

Farrul wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:04 am I see 3 options for this highly abusive skill.

1) It need to check vs Parry again. The most exposed targets ( melee) do not typically have high disrupt unless it is a SnB tank holding the line. Leavy the disrupt check to help casters.

2) When interrupted by taunt, should go into cooldown. Tanks taunt it and immediately mara spams it again is cause of much grief.

3) Reduce the pull range to 45 feet.
You really really dont want it checking on parry. Because then it would scale with strenght (which mara stacks to cap) and not on int (now it scales on int, just fyi). You can't parry attack coming from your back, but you can dodge and disrupt them. Defending the pull on parry would mean that 100% chance of pulling healer and rdps. For some time on RoR the pull was defendable on parry and the change was reverted because it was OP.
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siglade
Posts: 102

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#78 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:16 am

Ysaran wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:58 am
Farrul wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:04 am I see 3 options for this highly abusive skill.

1) It need to check vs Parry again. The most exposed targets ( melee) do not typically have high disrupt unless it is a SnB tank holding the line. Leavy the disrupt check to help casters.

2) When interrupted by taunt, should go into cooldown. Tanks taunt it and immediately mara spams it again is cause of much grief.

3) Reduce the pull range to 45 feet.
You really really dont want it checking on parry. Because then it would scale with strenght (which mara stacks to cap) and not on int (now it scales on int, just fyi). You can't parry attack coming from your back, but you can dodge and disrupt them. Defending the pull on parry would mean that 100% chance of pulling healer and rdps. For some time on RoR the pull was defendable on parry and the change was reverted because it was OP.
Fyi is scale with str, not int no matter if disrupt or parry secondly the change was reverted because of ability rework and not because it was OP
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Elfo7
Posts: 20

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#79 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:45 pm

Might be unpopular opinion, but I never agreed with pull mechanic, order or destro. It is basically a guaranteed kill and it looks dumb, doesn't require skill and feels frustrating if you are on the receiving end. I would never have implemented such mechanic. For me there is way too much CC in this game. Every battle is the same, you get slowed, stunned, rooted, sometimes you spend the entire battle looking at the screen being unable to move your character.

And they still toned it down from DAOC, where you could get mezzed for 2 minutes. It was ridiculous. Warhammer sounds like a good deal in comparison, but there is still way too much CC. Add punts/pulls on top of that and it becomes a frustrating experience.

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Phantasm
Posts: 699

Re: Mara pull is a nice idea but...

Post#80 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:45 pm

Elfo7 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:45 pm Might be unpopular opinion, but I never agreed with pull mechanic, order or destro. It is basically a guaranteed kill and it looks dumb, doesn't require skill and feels frustrating if you are on the receiving end. I would never have implemented such mechanic. For me there is way too much CC in this game. Every battle is the same, you get slowed, stunned, rooted, sometimes you spend the entire battle looking at the screen being unable to move your character.

And they still toned it down from DAOC, where you could get mezzed for 2 minutes. It was ridiculous. Warhammer sounds like a good deal in comparison, but there is still way too much CC. Add punts/pulls on top of that and it becomes a frustrating experience.
Actually, finding out that racially-bound crowd control abilities used by NPCs caught me off guard and that retraumatization when NPC Archmages use the same skill icons and sound effects on you. It was one of the unexpected but much-needed features :)

I get it, its sometimes frustrating to find a way between pulls, knockdowns, almost constant snares etc, but people need to adapt to it to fully utilize it.

Two nights ago I saw Warband Leader got marapulled into a blob of destro, people after so many years are not prepared for those situations. I mean why not order a protection, counter-charge etc. Everyone just stood there waiting for a member HP went down to make a res. Utilizing immunities is not as common thing among guild warbands as it seems it should be.

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