[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[Karast]

Proposal:
Swap Phosphorus Shells and Strafing Run on the mastery trees.

Rationale:
As-is, nobody uses Phosphorus Shells OR Strafing Run. A change might make either a little more palatable, or not, but at least they will synergize with the intended strategy of each tree better:

1. Phosphorus Shells has an 80ft. range, which is 20ft. less than every other Rifleman ability. It requires the engineer to get closer to the enemy, which goes against the idea of a Rifleman engineer being a stationary RDPS shooting from far away (See: Snipe has a 150ft. range, most Rifleman abilities have a Cast Time greater than the GCD)
2. Strafing run has a range similar to most Grenadier abilities, but it knocks targets back. The Grenadier tree is designed for the engineer to get closer to the enemy, and features a lot of AoE DoT abilities. A knockback only serves to push enemies out of range of your other Grenadier abilities, and out of their AoE radius. However, this works well on the Rifleman tree, as it would knockback enemies who get too close to the engineer, allowing him the time and distance to kite away.
3. Strafing Run does physical damage, and a Rifleman engineer is more likely to have more WS, so the damage scales better for them.
4. Phosphorus Shells is another AoE DoT, which fits better with the Grenadier tree. A Grenadier engineer is more likely to have a higher toughness/armor and BS at the expense of WS, so the damage of Phosphorus Shells is unchanged or improved for them.

This is not a "fix" or a balance adjustment for the engineer, it's simply moving two abilities around so that both are more likely to be slotted. Because both abilities benefit without changing the overall balance of the class, this seems like one of those "no-brainer" changes we're eligible to make immediately.

EDIT: For pretty much the same reasons, Can we swap the Morale 4's, Artillery Barrage and Scattershot? Both are useless compared to Hail of Doom, but this way they'll fit better.

Not a bad idea. Strafing run does have it's uses though. With morale 2 it is not bad AoE spike when pared with LR. It is good in certain situations in RvR for example clearing a doorway, or getting a melee train off a healer, but it would synergies better in Rifle than Grenade.

My real question though is it good enough as an end tier ability? Would people actually go that deep to spec it?

I'd support the change though. It makes sense.

What about doing something like making well oiled machine / chaotic attunement as a base part of the mechanic? It helps a lot with turret / daemon placements, and more importantly frees up a tactic slot. Power balance wise it is not massive, but it does give a big quality of life improvement and opens up a few new tactic setups.

[Genisaurus]

Not a bad idea. Strafing run does have it's uses though. With morale 2 it is not bad AoE spike when pared with LR. It is good in certain situations in RvR for example clearing a doorway, or getting a melee train off a healer, but it would synergies better in Rifle than Grenade.

My real question though is it good enough as an end tier ability? Would people actually go that deep to spec it?

I'd support the change though. It makes sense.

What about doing something like making well oiled machine / chaotic attunement as a base part of the mechanic? It helps a lot with turret / daemon placements, and more importantly frees up a tactic slot. Power balance wise it is not massive, but it does give a big quality of life improvement and opens up a few new tactic setups.

Strafing Run is not a good option for an end tier ability, no, but neither is Phosphorus Shells. They can be buffed or redesigned later, but I didn't/don't want the swap to be held up by discussions about changing the way the abilities work, or other buffs to the class. It's just cleaning house before those discussions take place.

As for Well Oiled Machine, I think that was in the notes for the PTS. Making Redeploy/Resummon cost 0 AP would make sense for the class (Engi and Magus both), but for some reason it's been a harder sell here when it's come up before. I guess too many people see the Engineer as it is now in T3, and not how it will be in T4.

[Renork]

You could also make demons/turrets have a 0 cast time. The AP cost isn't an issue in t4 and if extending the range on the % damage increase buff is out of the question, then this would be another viable alternative. Even with these buffs I highly doubt people will consider including a magus or eng in a 6 man other than for their pulling abilities. Engs have to mainly deal with armor mitigation which is definitely frustrating but CAN be fixed. By the same token, if engies damage is changed to ele/corp, then a magus should receive Unshakable Focus.

[Genisaurus]

Straight up, the Rifleman tree damage types will not be changed. The problem with the Rifleman tree is the larger, underlying problem of how WS and armor interact, and WS prevalence in engi gear. Changing the damage type would be a band aid fix, and we do not like doing those.

Besides, it opens the door for SW and SQ to say the same thing.

[Renork]

I'm just going to reiterate that balancing magus and engies is probably the biggest challenge when it comes to class balance. There are MANY potential ways to break both classes and every suggestion/change should be evaluated accordingly (both pros and cons) before making any changes. The stagger change was excellent and very much needed; however, the BoC change was strange. Both classes are capable of very decent burst in t4, and any balance changes when it comes to these two classes in particular should be delayed until then. By all means continue suggesting ideas though, that's the purpose of this thread after all.

[Tesq]

i would feel very confortable if as a trade off for have a static pet we could have again rend winds / firebomb cast while move as it was for magus at the start of t1 or/and instead have a 0 cast time or 0 ap a cast while moving summoning deamon/turrent.
Have those 2 stuff would alredy jimp magus/engi role for me tod have a st build which can rival with bw/sorc due to mobility.
But regard damages for me magus is fine. It's just the fact that we have a too much static class that hit us. If something as give a wp the free aoe detaunt was done, i just dont see why try to temp fix and test the static of these 2 classes should not be try.

[Tklees]

I have limited experience on these two classes admittedly but I can speak from what I know from playing with and against them.

T4 armor will hurt the engi way more than the magus damage wise and UF does not make up for it. But any overall of armor is a buff to not only engis but all physical damage dealers, hello slayers and SWs, what I have seen and agree with is the lack of ST burst as an option. The armor pen from guns thing sounds kinda cool IMO. It will do a lot to help engis while not buffing other physical damage. The insta cast pet should be done IMO. Let's the player immediately get the pet back out and if it is just moving it and not a resummon they should keep their 20% stack.

As to magus I feel like if they had thier current st rotation looked at and the current resist debuff changed to be more inline like a sorcs or BWs they will have great results

My two cents

[Renork]

Like I mentioned multiple times, t4 does not = t3.

Tesq, I know you have the best intentions, but your suggestions shows your lack of knowledge with the class. WS + Glean + on the move rend winds? Do you realize how absurd that would be?

The "loner" idea is interesting and could work. But, honestly you truly have to wait until t4 to see how to balance these two classes. We're not not talking about 2h wp's here :>

[Simmox]

Well Oiled Machine tactic slotted=instant turret

I find Tink spec suits me best and Grenadier would be next choice with Rifle last.
most complaints i hear from our guys is Snipe cast time is too long in the current enviroment(latency)
too easily interupted by LOS and other terrain factors

Lowering the cast time of Snipe may cure some of its drawbacks.

[Tesq]

Like I mentioned multiple times, t4 does not = t3.

Tesq, I know you have the best intentions, but your suggestions shows your lack of knowledge with the class. WS + Glean + on the move rend winds? Do you realize how absurd that would be?

The "loner" idea is interesting and could work. But, honestly you truly have to wait until t4 to see how to balance these two classes. We're not not talking about 2h wp's here :>

worry not i know i am a newby on magus just going to throw some ideas,

i know it could escalate badly, but seems how much low are magus damages x dot, it feel fine, bw can just apply some dots than have all the mobility he wants he doing more burst while we do more damage over time, so it mean magus/engi should exel in movement, and loose all this static dps it have. That 15% more damage due tactic could be op indeed.