[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[TenTonHammer]

Except all that accomplishes is making back-liners squishier, it doesn't fix the fact melee healers are relentlessly trained into the ground, are so easily countered, or simply are out-performed by said back-liners.

No but it does address the fact that the entire concept of front line melee healers was botched resulting in extreamly strong melee backline healers whith more armor, some of the best clenses and AoE heals that result them in completely overshadowing the other 2 faction alternatives

It dosnt make backliners squisher it would bring them in line

if your going to be in the back lines spamming heals and gclense everytime its off CD then what right do you have to have medium armor while every other backliner has light

[Sigimund]

Medium armour can be part of a balanced kit for healing under pressure, if the (salvation) WP is less able to heal and kite while the cloth healers are more able to do so. Then the WP needs the medium armour more and uses a different strategy to heal under pressure.

You are right that a lot of what makes backline WPs strong is due to a design that was supposed to be melee based. For example, the fast cast times. This could be changed so that the AOE heal was instant cast with a 2H but 2.5s cast with a book like other healers, rather than the "middle" position it is now. Just another example.

[ThePollie]

No but it does address the fact that the entire concept of front line melee healers was botched resulting in extreamly strong melee backline healers whith more armor, some of the best clenses and AoE heals that result them in completely overshadowing the other 2 faction alternatives

It dosnt make backliners squisher it would bring them in line

if your going to be in the back lines spamming heals and gclense everytime its off CD then what right do you have to have medium armor while every other backliner has light

I'm all for bringing them in line with the other heals, but I've grown tired of the "grace sucks, so make salvation suck to match" suggestions I've been hearing over the last few weeks.

And I'm not sure if nerfing their armour is even the right solution. We don't have much in the way of mobility or panic cool-downs of some classes (Embrace the Warp, Rune of Binding, etc). It's the same reason I would like to see Wrath have a lot more damage in T4. Even with the self-healing that Grace/Wrath or Wrath/Grace can have, we're still massively crippled by the fact of how sluggish we are.

[Azarael]

The point has been well made previously that WP and DoK rely on medium armor to cover for their lack of kiting options.

[Specialpatrol]

I think you need to be extremely careful with considerations regarding complete overhauls of careers.

Yes, healing WPs/DoKs do often top the charts in sc's, due to a focus on aoe healing. But other healing careers bring other things to the table - such as stronger st healing, better dmg specs (AMs, but also aoe Zealots), more/better buffs/debuffs and more cc abilities.

I'm all for fixing glaring imbalances (the previous discussions of changing Strikethrough to parry instead of block and the WPs useless heal debuff come to mind).

But talking about complete overhauls because a few whiners whine loud enough could potentially ruin otherwise great classes.

[Azarael]

I don't recall anyone saying anything about a complete overhaul.

Regarding your comment about WP/DoK being great classes: They're not. They're mandatory in most comps, they're easy to play with restricted interaction (group cleanse, group HoT and group heal are all untargeted), they're spoonfed resources off their offhands and smite/lash and they soak damage in lieu of kiting. Add to that that they grossly violate their own class mechanic and for WP, two of their three paths underperform, one /grievously/. The only thing that's great about them is the way Salvation overperforms.

[Specialpatrol]

Well, if you're complaining about armor type, certain tactics and class mechanics and advocating that these needs to be looked at to bring the WP/DoK more in line with other healers, then you're talking a complete class overhaul in my ears.

Only thing is, you seriously risk messing with the group mechanics on a whole - or at least you put you in a position, where you will have to adjust all other classes as well, if you start to strongly alter one specific class.

And don't get me wrong. I'm all for more viable melee healing/dps specs for especially the WP (as I see it, the DoK is fine as it is - you can make a strong heal build and a decent dps build, where abilities are in sync with the spec purpose etc). But I would suggest limiting the fine-tuning to a straight comparison to and mirroring with the DoK - i.e. dual wield gives parry buff, 2-hander should give parry debuff (which would of course also apply to other classes using these weapon types), the DoK have a 50% heal debuff , the WP should have a 50% heal debuff as well etc.

And yeah, the WP/DoK is a great group healer. But as mentioned, the other healing classes have other things going for them. As in stronger single-target burst heals and better cc abilities - which makes them very strong in certain setups or in 2-3-man groups. WPs/DoKs have just about zero useful abilities in this section (their best st heal is Divine Mend/Khaine's Invigoration, which is on a .5s cd and can't be cast on the run).

So if you start nerfing/altering the basic mechanic of the WP/DoK - which is aoe healer - then you need to be really considerate about it. Otherwise you will probably have to either compensate it with buffs in other departments, or similar nerfs to other classes' core functions. And then the snowball starts rolling.

That's at least how I see it.

And most classes have a certain spec/path that's the most optimal. A tanky SnB KotBS will almost always be the better option for a group than a dps KotBS with a 2-hander, just as dps'ing as a WP/DoK will never make you a slayer/choppa. But it's fun, offers variation - and can sometimes really kick ass. So it's great to have the option to do it. Especially if it's made viable.

[th3gatekeeper]

I've stopped posting in this thread because of the realization that looking at Grace in isolation isn't going to work. We need to get into T4 and see how Salvation/Grace, Grace/Salvation, Wrath/Grace and Grace/Wrath are going to work out before we can do any more here.

I'm especially interested in seeing greater Grace viability be linked into a reduction in the power of the backliners, to bring WP and DoK to what they're meant to be.

Azarael, new player here, hit RR40 on my first character and now doing a second.

Since I dont have perspective as some of the long time players, I guess I am concerned seeing this since we dont know how long we are going to be 32/40 and when T4 is "coming". I am LOVING the work you guys are doing here but are there plans to leave some of these imbalances in the game in its current form for so long? It seems (since you have been playing DoK and WP) you have a fair handle on some of the issues and could make a few adjustments to really help balance the game.

Do you look at perspective around "fixing now = better QoL = potentially more new players and retained players vs fixing later with more T4 data = less QoL now and hurt population"?

[Azarael]

It may look like I have a good handle on things, but my viewpoint is from T3 at the moment. We simply need to know how things are going to change in T4 before we can do any more.

[th3gatekeeper]

It may look like I have a good handle on things, but my viewpoint is from T3 at the moment. We simply need to know how things are going to change in T4 before we can do any more.

Thanks again for the post, I promise I am not trying to troll or anything, but since we shouldnt be expecting T4 anytime soon, wouldnt it be better to make some adjustments to T3 since we will probably be in T3 for quite some time?

It was my understanding that the next "stuff" to be worked on were PVE and 6 man SCs. Considering Que times went to crap when lvl 32s were given their own Que, it seems one of the major "blocks" to opening up T4 could be the population. Going from 3 "brackets" up to 4 will severely increase Que times.

So it seems to me one of the best ways to get more population is increase QoL and make the game more enjoyable, which seems like a small fix to classes that you know are under performing (relative) would be a big improvement for players of that class?

I admit I am a new player so I lack perspective but I am not new to MMOs and am LOVING this game right now (only played a few months on LIVE) and really just want to see it excel and grow in population!