DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

nerf healing range to melee

RIP DoK

[Annaise16]

People who are playing healing wp/dok are conning you about medium armor not being a factor in the OPness of these classes. It is a bigger factor than the healing, and a wp/dok in group should be outhealing any cloth healer in their group by a factor of 2 to 1. I'll give you a typical example.

For equal level pieces of gear, medium armor has twice the armor value of its cloth armor equivalent. Typical values will be something like 50% mitigation for medium and 25% mit for cloth. You can slot armor talis in both sets to boost the mit percentages by about 15%. So let the medium armor provide 65% mit with the cloth providing 40% mit.

Now, an attacker's weapon skill and other armor penetration/bypass might provide an average of around 40% penetration for physical damage. So this will reduce the 65% and 40% armor values to 39% and 24%, respectively.

If both toons are hit by a 1000 point physical damage attack, the medium armor toon will take 610 points while the clothie will receive 760 points of damage. So the clothie will be receiving about 25% more physical damage than the medium armor toon. That is a massive amount in the context of this game. It is almost equivalent to the difference between being attacked by a mdps in offensive sov and one in offensive warpforged in AOR. And that comparison is for a target not using Trivial Blows.

People are saying they run their premade with dok/zealot instead of dok/dok because it provides better healing, etc. But it does not go close to providing a better combination of healing and survivability. I can remember some of the best runies/zealots on their server healing in dok/zealot or wp/RP combinations in 6v6s, and they were always the weak link who was the first healer to die and the reason that their team lost. There was only one reason for that, and it wasn't a fault of their healing/kiting/positioning/detaunting/Guarding/intelligence or skill.

[Scrilian]

Do these bizarre numbers and % come from combat logs in excel or just from the top of the head?

[Annaise16]

Do these bizarre numbers and % come from combat logs in excel or just from the top of the head?

Those are typical numbers, nothing bizarre about them. Just look at the paper dolls of your own toons.

[Bozzax]

No-one wants backline healing DOKs/WPs in cloth and making them front line healers is also not a viable balancing method.

Healing simply is to unreliable in the front line due to heal debuffs, setbacks, stuns, silence, KDs or just being focused.

Why not test reducing RF/SE from gear so they need to pause healing from time to time or would be required to manage resources? Heck it could possibly lure them closer to front line just to ninja some extra resources

Why not test moving group cleanse tactic to 3 points and make radii 40 feet AOE except for the cleanse on friendly target (100 feet)? Again making them less effective at 100 feet spamming

Please also consider adding basic AP/s to all AP-healers armor sets since DOKs/WPs already have their basic resource/s (from books/chal)

EDIT: The point of moving group cleanse to 3 pts would be to makes it available for melee healers as well.

EDIT2: Anyone saying reduced radii would make group cleanse an unless tactic should consider why it currently is mandatory

[Scrilian]

Do these bizarre numbers and % come from combat logs in excel or just from the top of the head?

Those are typical numbers, nothing bizarre about them. Just look at the paper dolls of your own toons.

Ah, good to know that there was no prior analysis to that non-sense.

[Annaise16]

Do these bizarre numbers and % come from combat logs in excel or just from the top of the head?

Those are typical numbers, nothing bizarre about them. Just look at the paper dolls of your own toons.

Ah, good to know that there was no prior analysis to that non-sense.

Well if you want to do more than look at your own toons, you can go to wardb and look at the armor values on every armor set, and divide them by the divider that gives you the mitigation percentage for respective armor values at each level.

Then you can work through the average armor penetration values that all the physicial damage classes receive from weapon skill, tactics, abilities, and armor bypass due to positional attacks. I happen to have done this previously and posted many of the results to the old bioware forums. An example, below is a link to a table showing the benefits of Piercing Bite.

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 9a722d.png

I made many calculations and posts like this on the old forums over a 2-3 year span. Unfortunately, most of the calculations (and all of the posts) have been lost with the Bioware forums. But I have a lot of experience in making these calculations and it takes little time to reproduce them.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

The main problem is the low skill cap on WP/dok, adressing that would be against the general pug policy I see in RoR changes. Several other classes would have to be adressed aswell.

The problem about grp cleanse is that it is connected to ae debuffs on the opposing side, like cs on destro and sl on order. A gcd for a gcd while the majority still thinks that grp cleanse cleanses 6 gcds.
The grp cleanse can be adjusted by adjusting debuff types of every class, the single ones may only be cleansed by single cleanse while ae debuffs are affected by grp cleanse, sth in that way but not so extreme.

Nerfing wp/dok to melee heal will simply have them under permanent outgoing, with doks having no chance for a decent heal output, while at the same time it is the biggest buff for rdps the game could ever receive.
Snare is already strong, wp/dok will simply not reach melee combat vs rdps.

The meta we currently have heavily relies on wp/dok as a factor of stability, changes need to be tested, before they are made! Not discussed with solo players over a few pages on the forums.

[Scrilian]

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?
I'm not trying to be rude or troll you for trolling sake, but I mean come on, mate - its like when someone has serious doubts about your "verbal math", you tell him to go f-himself, here are some vague reasons why you already done calculations in the past + some irrelevant piecebite spreadsheet and if I don't take your word for it - google it.

[Annaise16]

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?
I'm not trying to be rude or troll you for trolling sake, but I mean come on, mate - its like when someone has serious doubts about your "verbal math", you tell him to go f-himself, here are some vague reasons why you already done calculations in the past + some irrelevant piecebite spreadsheet and if I don't take your word for it - google it.

Do the calculations for yourself if you don't believe me. They are easy to do.

And I wouldn't call a table outlining the effective armor penetration buff that Piercing Bite gives to marauders irrelevant when discussing armor penetration of dps classes.