[Guard Rework] A suggestion to better balance RvR and SCs.

[th3gatekeeper]

So something I have noticed and firmly believe is a major cause of "balance issues" is the lack of in game support surrounding guard. Suggestions have been posted since the beginning of time for this, but what can be done is limited and good players will frankly coordinate in comms. However I cant tell you how many times players either forget OR dont place themselves close enough to the target they are guarding. I think on my lvl 40 Mara (RR~34-35) I have had guard maybe ~5 times in SCs. When I DO get guard, that tank is more often running around byhimself NOT trying to stick by his "guard-ee".

I have played multiple tanks on multiple sides and see this as a MAJOR issue that even the "best tanks" in the game dont do as well as we should. Not just that but the "DPS tanks" who think they are MDPS NEVER guard because they are frankly selfish and built themselves as glass canons. So what I am about to propose, undoubtedly, would be a HUGE change to the game and would not only change how tanks are built, but also how PUGs work together and I THINK the end result would be massively favorable to the game....

SUGGESTION: Remove the 30% damage bonus from Taunt. Instead make this (taunt) a "single target" Challenge. Meaning that target does 30% less damage to everyone except you. This would not stack with actual Challenge, but now the tank class has TWO "damage reduction" taunts. 1 is AoE the other is single target. Allowing for a tank to play some BIG utility here.

What does this have to do with Guard? Well simple. ADD back the 30% damage (or make it ~20-25%) whenever a tank is within 30 feet of his guarded target. Call it "Synergistic Strikes" as a buff or something. Basically gives the tank class the damage from taunt, but only when guarding a target.

What this does is now whenever someone wants to play a "DPS Tank" they are FORCED to build around guarding a target for max damage. But what this means is no more glass canon tanks and this also means they are forced to try and work as a TEAM to deal good damage so durable tanks are favored and this forever ends the debate on how glass canon tanks can provide "pressure" too.. Because now even a DPS tank with a 2H is going to need to build tanky to eat guard damage to keep the damage boost going. I think you will find major gameplay changes as tanks will nearly ALL be focusing on guarding rather than whatever else they like to do (leeroy jenkins in with a 2H?)

Another idea to consider with this is "Focused Offense" could be incorporated into this further. This tactic has LONG been the topic of debate where the armor loss makes you as squishy as non tanks, but only 15% increased damage doesnt make you a MDPS. Not to mention the loss of whatever else in that tactic slot. So what I would propose here is "Synergistic Strikes" (or w.e the damage boost from guard is called) would NOW provide 15% MORE damage however it reduces the guarded damage by 15%. Meaning your "guard-ee" takes 65% of the damage and you take 35%. So you are giving up some "guard benefit" for your own damage benefit but ONLY whilst guarding someone else. So this would be the "glass canon" tank version which frankly is MUCH preferred - even at 35% - to the current 2H tanks that NEVER guard. OR another version of this would be, That it INCREASES the guard damage you take by 15%. Meaning if it WAS 50-50 split. it would now be a 50-65 split or something. So you literally end up just taking more damage from guard (as you are 'focused on offense'). Either way I think would work fine. You LOSE something with guard (either protective power, or tankiness while guarding) to gain damage.

So take a step back and what this DOES is:
1) Promotes ALL tanks guarding ANYONE possible - even guard swapping to nearby allies in order to gain a damage bonus
2) Provides a little more utility in terms of "damage reduction" via TWO taunts instead of 1 being a damage bonus and the other a reduction
3) Ends the glass canon tanks as they are not viable any longer
4) Possibly fix/reworks Focused Offense to be somewhat viable tactic where as now its completely useless.


Now I realize this is a MAJOR change and one I have not thought about lightly. But I FIRMLY believe this would be a HUGE QoL increase for EVERYONE in the game since now guard would be much more valuable TO the tanks themselves - where as right now all it does is help the group.

[peterthepan3]

I'm sorry but calling for a nerf on an ability that allows tanks to DPS assist based on your individual experiences while solo queuing scenarios doesn't seem justified. If you are solo queuing, then you must be prepared to: have archmages who are DPS; tanks who will think they are Sauron from LOTR and not guard anyone; healers who join their own parties, nullifying their group heals.

A good DPS tank in a competitive setup (btw a good dps tank is almost vital in any competitive setting) will use taunt 9 times out of 10 to interrupt enemy healers, but will also use it if extra pressure damage is needed to kill an enemy. Taunt works very well in this regard, and punishing people who ARE using it well just because a 2h chosen in a random scenario (who is never guarding someone) ISN'T, doesn't seem fair.

I do, however, agree that people ought to be encouraged (read: forced) to use their respective archetype's core abilities (guard, taunts, challenges, heals, etc) but don't believe that this is the best way to go about doing it. I also agree that Focused Offense could do with a reworking.

[th3gatekeeper]

I do, however, agree that people ought to be encouraged (read: forced) to use their respective archetype's core abilities (guard, taunts, challenges, heals, etc) but don't believe that this is the best way to go about doing it. I also agree that Focused Offense could do with a reworking.

Id love to hear your suggestion then. At the end of the day, its not that this happens a few times it happens ALL the times. I cant even tell you how many times i see tanks "brag" about "guard swapping" but they stand 40-50 feet AWAY from the guy the swapped guard TOO. I facepalm ALL THE TIME because people dont know guard range. Not just that, but its ALL THE TIME tanks never guard. I never called for a "nerf" I said MOVE it to another function. I agree taunt is used, or should be used, to interrupt stuff but all the "dps tanks" want to roll in, taunt a healer, never guard, and think cause they got #2 in total damage they are good.

The game is perpetuating the problem right now. Tanks should be rewarded for guarding. I dont just suggest this because of PUG SCs, I suggest this because of my PREMADE SCs stomp all over opponent PUG SCs BECAUSE noone is guarding. I am further convicted when I run with a few buddies on my Mara (instead of my Chosen main) and never get guard UNLESS we bring a guard into our group with us.

Id love to hear other options. At the end of the day, over HALF the tank classes just want to max their DPS with a 2H and stacking STR while never guarding. The ONLY way I see to make them want to guard is by giving them what they are wanting - damage. Doing this will inevitably lead to more tanks stacking other good things too like Parry/Wounds to survive guarding SO THAT they get more damage. Which promotes team play and makes everyone have more fun. Also you will actually see tanks SWAP guard to front line MDPS because that tank wants to rush in and get his damage bonus.

I fail to see how this is not a good idea. Ive talked to several about it as well as chewed on it for weeks before posting. It would bring about a TON of balance and more fun for both sides.... Not to mention it nearly forces teamwork....

[roadkillrobin]

I think the way to "fix" this non guarding is by educating the playerbase more then anything.

I was about to make a "How to PuG tank" youtube video. But my gfx card can't handle playing and recording at the same time for some reason.

I think by explaining the tank role and showing some stactics of wins and losses with certains builds for the playerbase would do the trick.

The only thing I would like to change about tanks is by giving em Guard at lvl 1 instead of 10.

[Flavorburst]

Speaking as a person that has a 2h tank that puts a strong focus on guarding, I think that rewarding tanks with a flat increase of 30% dmg for doing what they are supposed to be doing is a bad idea.

I could see reducing the incoming damage to make people less hesitant about distributing it, but at the end of the day, if the player can't/won't understand/care that making people healable (or just generally increasing their longevity in fights) is conducive to winning, then the community needs to make it clearer that it isn't acceptable.

[peterthepan3]

Any tank that specs for pure DPS would be a burden on their team if they use guard and are told to 'tank' as they will get one-shot quicker than their respective DPS partner, just as DPS healers are a 'burden' in the sense that their heals aren't great if they are told to 'heal': they should both be treated as DPS (even if bad versions)

If a player is running pure str/crit with minimum defensive stats, I would just treat them as a DPS (even though they aren't). I agree that a lot of loldps tanks want to just taunt and kill things and get top damage, but the same problem exists with dps healers/magi/engi who just dot everything, slayers who flurry spam, etc. It's a global problem that doesn't just exist within the tank archetype world.

At the end of the day a player's inability to use guard well boils down to a l2p issue. Tanks are inherently 'harder' to play well than a DPS, and as you say a large portion of the players playing tanks do so without any real interest in tanking and just like the aesthetics of the class/want to imagine themselves as Sauron killing all da hobbits.

[th3gatekeeper]

Speaking as a person that has a 2h tank that puts a strong focus on guarding, I think that rewarding tanks with a flat increase of 30% dmg for doing what they are supposed to be doing is a bad idea.

I could see reducing the incoming damage to make people less hesitant about distributing it, but at the end of the day, if the player can't/won't understand/care that making people healable (or just generally increasing their longevity in fights) is conducive to winning, then the community needs to make it clearer that it isn't acceptable.

Well first, I never said 30% increase. I suggested more 20-25% increase - taking the place of the damage boost you get from taunt (or ALSO the taunt weapon effect or duelist gear set).

If that is STILL too high, 15% is fine. Point being. I think rewarding tanks with more damage for what they are supposed to be doing is a GREAT idea.

Reducing incoming damage, to me, makes zero sense and still wouldnt provide people incentive to do this either... People actually use focused offense for heavens sake... what makes you think people care about reducing incoming damage and how is that supposed to work or be RP friendly?

Sadly, everytime I see a 2H BO... I never see him guard. I see 2H chosen's... rarely see them guard. I see 2H BGs... never see them guard. Why? Because they go 2H for DAMAGE purposes.... The issue is its a HUGE drag on the group and they SHOULD be guarding.

Its simple. It gives those players more damage, but forces them to guard (take more damage) to get it. How is that not a fair tradeoff? SnB tanks already deal ZERO damage, so they wont matter frankly. Its the 2H Tanks that can deal semi damage but now to max their damage they are forced to guard which benefits EVERYONE.

Think about it.... It will revolutionize this game....

[Flavorburst]

"What does this have to do with Guard? Well simple. ADD back the 30% damage (or make it ~20-25%) whenever a tank is within 30 feet of his guarded target."

Why would you lie in the first sentence of your response? It's in writing not more than a few posts up...

Anyway, the point is: you are talking about min/maxing as a carrot for players that don't want to min/max as it is. If they were interested in maximizing their potential, they would already be guarding people. As it stands, the only impact that your proposal will have is rewarding players that are already doing their job with a near 100%, 30% damage buff.

Some people just want to run around mashing buttons like a badass. It's the behavior that is the perceived problem, not the mechanics (imo). It sucks that in regards to an SC, you need to deal with it, but I am more of a fan of educating/trying to reason with people as a community than saying "OK, HERE IS SOME MORE STUFF! WILL YOU PLEASE PLAY THE WAY WE ALL WANT, NOW?".

[Tankbeardz]

I totally disagree with this idea. If you want to balance pug SC's you should make a solo queue separate from a group queue and require at least 1 tank 1 heal spec healer and 1 dps per group. Just my 2 cents. RVR is much trickier...you can't force people to guard or even make them guard effectively...this is definitely a L2P issue.

[Eathisword]

...tanks who will think they are Sauron from LOTR and not guard anyone

Sounds just like me :p

I agree with Tankbeardz though. Silly idea. In premades, your dps knows what he's doing, so tank follows him.

Just reverse the logic.

In pug scens... you are the good dps... Ask for guard. If the tank is out of guard range : RUN to him. And then FOLLOW the tank. Assist him. Easiest way to go, make him be better by being an awesome dps with some awareness When he sees how awesome guard is, learn the range, etc. he can better himself because of you !

To conclude, (imagine John Oliver's voice...) leave me my freedom to be a bad tank ! Tanks are people too ! Hear me ? Tanks are people. They have the right to choose... #prochoice4life #focusoffenseftw