[Guard Rework] A suggestion to better balance RvR and SCs.

[bloodi]

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I would explain why Elo hell is a thing that doesnt even exist, i would even try to explain to you why if it existed, is something that is not applicable to War at all.

But who cares? Its been clear already that this discussions are worthless and you just want to talk about 6vs6 vs pugs and how cool you think you all are.

Whatever.

[peterthepan3]

On the contrary, I would hope that I have been giving constructive feedback to the OP and arguing why I believe the change he proposes to Guard (though done with the best of intentions, I don't deny) are unnecessary. Whereas thus far, it seems to me that you are intent on derailing this discussion as I am yet to see anything pertinent to the OT; instead, you have opted for the rather tiring and monotonous 6v6 community slating :/

Anyway I've offered my thoughts re OT and shall leave it there. Focused Offense could do with an overhaul and would be interesting to discuss what this could entail.

[th3gatekeeper]

You say that 'Realistically what this change would lead to is more guard swapping': if people are not prepared to use an integral part of their archetype WITHOUT BEING GIVEN MORE DAMAGE, then that speaks volumes about said people. You fail to mention that most guilded tanks/competitive tanks do NOT have such a problem because they have been able to grasp the very simple concept that if you are a tank, you should be using your guard.

Part of this is because many players dont feel they have a class that represents what they want to play, manifested in this game.

I am coming to my perspective from one who didnt play live, who came to this game, looking to find a DPS-y/tanky character. I asked several people who kept telling me "play what you want" but was NEVER once told "here are the three META archtypes" not just that, but also, there is no class that really fits the roll I was looking to fill. Partly because it doesnt exist in this game.

There really is no "Fury Warrior" from WoW. Or if you are familiar with D&D (Neverwinter) the "Great Weapon Fighter" was a class I played for years. He was pretty tanky and could also dish out damage, a true melee fear. This "hybrid" of Tank/Melee DPS is probably one of the most popular. I tried to make this via a Knight and a SM, and then a Chosen. I was also told a more "DPS" route was the Mara or the WL, and I made a Mara as well. But sadly it took months of playing all these classes to max level in PVP, focusing on PVP, to realize this "hybrid" really has no roll in PVP because of mechanics like Guard.

Since then I now build my Chosen to focus on guard, while using a 2h, its more for aesthetics than anything else really.

For the first 1-2 months of playing my tank, I didnt know guards range was so short. I was told by other 2H tanks to stack strength - even with renown, etc etc. I went this "glass canon" and even tried F.O.

So players come from these other games and try to find this "archtype" that is a hybrid tank/dps.... Now you might argue the BO is a good example. Well frankly every 2H BO I have played with NEVER uses guard and in fact, they usually ask me for guard. Why? Because they want to focus on "Stab you gooder" crits with a big 2H and dont have time to assist off you. The better BOs that I know run SNB and focus on ancillary damage.

Or say they DO go MDPS as a Mara or WL - which are the "tankier dps-ers" you are NOWHERE near the tankiness levels of a tank and you constantly see over and over, these ignorant 2H tanks, NOT guarding you nor anybody on your team...

I sympathize with you looking at this how you do, and your perspective, but the issue I see is that the "ideal" is not the reality. Ideally people would L2P, I agree. I did, it only took me a few characters and months of playing to really figure it out... But I know guys who NEVER figure it out and still slot auras like "All out assault" only thinking of the total damage numbers at the end of the SC bragging about how they are top 2 DPS...

The issue I see, is that "ideal" doesnt really exists, there is too much of a big gap between the MDPS and the Tank classes. If you roll tank and move towards "DPS" you wont be guarding much and frankly will still deal crap damage. If you slot MDPS and even if you try and build tanky, you still will never get to the level of a tank. Also, if you DO do (hehe) any of those you instantly fall outside the "META" which is massively sub-optimal.

"most guilded tanks/competitive tanks do NOT have such a problem" - I agree. from my experience these are few and far between and almost impossible to find when said tank wants to roll a different class like a MDPS for "fun". Also most of these "guilded tanks/competitive tanks" have to roll DPS alts FOR FUN because maining a tank gets really boring after a while...

There is a reason the BO is extremely popular with his crit tactic... There is a reason Azarael buffed the SM damage back in mod 3... Because MOST tanks DO want to deal some damage. You want to hit someone with a big 2H weapon and see nice numbers. Its the tanks who focus on toughness and dont care at all about damage that end up doing the best job but end up only having the tank be an alt they bring if noone else wants to....

So why not do both. I get the "its not broke so why fix it" argument, however I would argue that it IS broke because general population NEVER uses it, "guarding" is almost only reserved for premades its seems and the tanks Ive talked to when on my MDPS class, basically throw you guard and then say "if you want the benefit you stick by me" which sometimes I can, othertimes I cant because he will Leeroy in and IM the one (on my mara) that is focused. So I think it IS broken for the general population and its why you so many 1 sided games that get pushed back to spawn. Whoever has the "coordinated group" wins. Even if its 3 dudes rocking a 1-1-1 setup, they will CRUSH a group of pugs.... why? Because of guard quite frankly. If guard where removed, it would remove a HUGE HUGE advantage premades have over PUGs. PUGs never use guard reliably... Premades do. Another is assisting, pugs never assist, premades ALL assist.

So why not make those two VERY important tools, more intuitive, more pug friendly, more rewarding for the guy that is guarding? Give him a benefit, make it worth HIS while to follow a MDPS guy around because he will benefit too....

Thats the only way to end the 100% selfish mindset I see so many times in PUGs... to almost "force" them to work together out of their own selfishness

[Luicetarro]

I have yet to hear 1 argument as to why this would be a negative thing. All I have heard is basically "I dont feel bad for guys who dont wanna L2P" and "this wasnt how it was on live.."

I dont see any DOWNSIDE to doing this. The only legitimate argument that does make a fair point is that premades would further benefit from this while PUGs wouldnt benefit as much. However while true, I think it lessens the "gap" in the benefit of premade guarding (which already happens) versus PUG guarding (which almost never happens). That gap TODAY is massive where as the gap after the proposed change would be much smaller.

I'd love to answer to your entire post, but can't atm. So picking out a single thing atm.

You just answered your own point.
The gap would even increase further. While premade would benefit from that all the time (since they are guardswapping, staying close to their guarded target), PUGs wouldn't do that. So you'd be hoping, by fueling the fire of 'I want DPSTANK!!!', you'd get ppl to actually use guard.

I pretty much doubt it, since:
Guardswap would require them to actually check where someone is standing (since they need someone next to them).
Use a skill by hand (since you wouldn't be able to cast it with nerfedbuttons).

That's a lot to ask for the kind of player you're aiming at. The 'Next target' + 'Nerfedbuttonsmashing' kind of player.

I'd love to promote guarding. I really do. But the mechanic itself is fine. It's even somewhat gamebreaking, if used by a team. If anything, it would have to get nerfed, instead of buffed, if you want it to make a difference.
So if in your opinion, guard will make premades too strong against PUGs, you'd have to lower the damage guarded to 30%, or 25%. But if you do that, guard will be pretty much worthless, since in T4 I can't hold focus of a target, just by guarding it. 4 mdps on my guarded player will make him drop down in seconds. I've to snare them, punt them away, run in their way, slow them, knock em down. Lots of things, your average PUG wouldn't do in the first place, if he is only about the dmg.
Making guard stronger as it is already won't teach someone to be a tank. He will have to learn it, since you just can't make a tanks job (or a great healers job, or an mean DDs job...) promoted in every single aspect.
Guard alone won't make a tank and only guarding as tank, for the extra damage, won't help your team at all.

[th3gatekeeper]

So you'd be hoping, by fueling the fire of 'I want DPSTANK!!!', you'd get ppl to actually use guard.

I pretty much doubt it, since:
Guardswap would require them to actually check where someone is standing (since they need someone next to them).
Use a skill by hand (since you wouldn't be able to cast it with nerfedbuttons).

I think your not giving enough credit to the PUGs man. People already know guard is good, they are just too lazy to use it and FOCUS on it since it doesnt provide them anything FUN. When someone rolls a 2H "DPS" tank, they want to just be able to run in and hit players and "push" and hope the healers keep THEM up. They dont care as much about the other players. However if you provided an incentive for them, I really think you will have players looking to guard someone near them to enable them to deal more damage.

I put myself in the mindset I had when I was first starting out and wanting to do a DPS tank. I would have LOVED to guard more if guard gave me more damage. I already knew Guard was good, but never focused on guarding. Id toss it on someone and then do my own thing thinking in my head "if they want it, they can come to me" - this is how I know the general mentality of the PUG 2H DPS tank, I was one of them.

It wont fix the "premade" issue of 4 guys FF 1 target and then he drops in 2 seconds. But it will get more tanks guarding both in SCs and RvR.

Guard IS strong and this is why premades have such a big advantage. Guard takes coordination and a TON of awareness. Its only 30 feet in range which if you mis communicate for a SECOND about who to attack and you run left while your guard-ee runs right, BAM your outside guard range. So CURRENTLY the only players that get to really use guard, are premades and the "1%" of PUGs that actually do it right.

If you adjust to this "new" method of guarding giving damage bonus, I dont think 100% of tanks will do it, but you might get half the tanks in PUG games using guard atleast... Even if premades will use it 100% of the time, that still a smaller gap compared to now where no PUG uses it. Also it will help alleviate the massive advantage a partial premade has over pugs - which right now its pretty easy to stop if you even have just a 1-1-1 comp in a PUG game. a DPS who is guarded and healed FF 1 target.... that guy will drop...

I mean I would LOVE to hear other suggestions about how to make guard more friendly to newer players and how to get them to do guard.... I dont see many other ways to make them WANT to guard, unless there is something in it for them.

[peterthepan3]

How much friendlier must guard be to newer players, though? As I suggested in the previous page, there are several addons to download that will help exponentially with newer players in determining their range from guarded friend/putting icons above them to know that they are being guarded.

It's an incredibly easy mechanic to utilise if people could just be bothered to learn how to.

If people don't 'want' to guard, then the simplest thing to do is to ignore them and focus on finding tanks to group up with that DO want to guard. Stubborn players do not deserve any more carrots on sticks than they have already been given here.

[Luicetarro]

I mean I would LOVE to hear other suggestions about how to make guard more friendly to newer players and how to get them to do guard.... I dont see many other ways to make them WANT to guard, unless there is something in it for them.

You have the correct intention, but trying to solve it with another carrot. But if you promote guard by adding a selfish bonus, why do you think, they would be better tanks after that?
They MIGHT use guard, not beeing able to use it properly and try to stay near someone to deal dmg. Fine and dandy.

But what's the next step? They deal more damage now, since they stay in guard-range. We promoted giving guard to get more damage in return.
So why should they do other duties, a tank usually will do? Promote it with more damage?

You'd start something that would change the game, yes. Maybe some guys really would start using guard, since it will benefit them.
But how about DD-Healer, that won't rez anyone? DoKs, that only self-heal?
Would you aim to guide every single one of them to a vital part of their class?

Beeing a tank in this game istn't about beeing selfish. Same as with healing an entire wb, not only a party.
The only thing I'd could think about, making guard easier to use, without killing it's point entirely, or overpowering it, would be change it's range. But that's about all I could think about, without changing the entire skill.


The other way around should do the trick better. Get them to know, what it is, to be a tank (DD, Healer). If they don't want to read/hear about it, fine, let them be. If they are interrested, there will be time to bring them closer to guard.

[th3gatekeeper]

You'd start something that would change the game, yes. Maybe some guys really would start using guard, since it will benefit them.
But how about DD-Healer, that won't rez anyone? DoKs, that only self-heal?
Would you aim to guide every single one of them to a vital part of their class?

No because other things like that dont make as big a difference as guard does. Thats the issue. Guard and assisting are the TWO biggest factors in this game.

You can take the best players in the game, but remove assisting and guard, take random PUGs that guard and assist and the PUGs can win. They are the two biggest impacts in any fight - you can instantly tell if a tank is guard swapping or even using guard, you can instantly tell when someone is focus fired down in 2 seconds.

yet there is zero in game support for either. So being the two biggest important factors in the game, I think they need some adjusting. I know assisting we can use macros. How many people do you think use macros to /assist? Zero Pug groups will...

Same with guarding, how many PUG games will have a tank that guards? Ive been in matches with 5 other tanks and my guard is the only one...

I get what you guys are saying, however if nothing is done, and we expect PUGs to DL or use addons or use macros which take extra effort, and take special care in implementing them, there will always be a BIG gap between coordination and not, which frankly doesnt bode well for the game.

The fact a casual solo player cant really log into the game and solo Q unless he gets a group together to use the mechanics of assisting and guard, he is basically worthless. Which creates problems for casual guys or guys who get on during low population times and dont have anyone in guild....

[Washnuggets]

Guard is fine the way it is, it doesn't need dumbed down for the masses. If people can't figure it out that's on them. For those who know how to use it, keep using it to destroy the side that doesn't.

[Arbich]

For the first 1-2 months of playing my tank, I didnt know guards range was so short. I was told by other 2H tanks to stack strength - even with renown, etc etc. I went this "glass canon" and even tried F.O.

There is a tooltip, but I agree. I would be nice if the UI give some clear information when you inside guard range to make some addons less mandatory.
I don´t agree to the other complaints and the suggested guard changes. Most tanks in PuG SC apply guard. Guard switch and to understand what a tank in general has to do, is the problem. So it is about situational awareness and that is a L2P issue.