Overarching balance changes

[Vigfuss]

Maybe a way to go about it would be to make core dots Damaging and tactic/spec dot kept cleansable. Just an idea.

That might be taking things too far, BW Sorc rotations need to be cleansable. And it would create a bunch of new problems I think.

[analoghermit]

aoe punt sw/bo have are useless they just give free immunity at least they could be given a more range

They are not useless. Sometimes the enemy melee train catches one of your groupmates and use a KD on him; at this point you use the AoE punt and give your friend enough time to get up and flee while your healers spam heals on him.

^^^

Few things are as glorious as getting piled on by the enemy team just to have a decked out BO waltz into them and use his AE punt to save your ass. Bonus for my head adding "SOD OFF RUNTS!".

(Same for SMs but a bit more eloquent)

[salaino]

Mugluck's idea for Cleanse is a good one.

The first in first out cleansing with the RPS we have now, which gives each healer some weaknesses, is too simple and doesn't allow a healer to choose what he's trying cleanse. He can only try to keep the debuffs at a minimum and hope to remove the important stuff in the process.

I made a few edits for clarity, and also:

I think it would be good if healers had more than one cleanse button so they could choose different types of debuffs to cleanse. Not sure if that's possible.

1. Cleanse system - All healers should be able to cleanse all type of debuffs. See the situation of Double DoK vs Double WP - enough said.

I would be good with getting rid of aoe cleanse for this. Healers having the option to almost target cleanse things would be pretty nice. Although, not too sure how adding two abilities to each healing class would work out with actually putting it into the game, with not having the ability to change the client side of things...

Making each of the three cleanses share the same cooldown but having them off the gcd would be interesting as well. Not too sure how broken that would be though. I feel like it wouldn't be that op if aoe cleanse was taken out.

[Vigfuss]

I would be good with getting rid of aoe cleanse for this. Healers having the option to almost target cleanse things would be pretty nice. Although, not too sure how adding two abilities to each healing class would work out with actually putting it into the game, with not having the ability to change the client side of things...

Making each of the three cleanses share the same cooldown but having them off the gcd would be interesting as well. Not too sure how broken that would be though. I feel like it wouldn't be that op if aoe cleanse was taken out.

I think you'd have to move away from the 3 debuff types and classify debuffs by cleanse type based on what they do, instead of by which class they are applied.

[TenTonHammer]

I think you'd have to move away from the 3 debuff types and classify debuffs by cleanse type based on what they do, instead of by which class they are applied.

All that would do is just make the healers that can clense hdbuffs mandatory

[Jaycub]

Is the problem rather the strength or necessity of heal debuffs then? Or what causes them to be mandatory :^)

[salaino]

All that would do is just make the healers that can clense hdbuffs mandatory

I'm not the best at explaining things sometimes. I was saying give all healers the option to cleanse each type (aliment, hex, curse) but have them all on the same cooldown, but you can target the type you want to take off. Therefore all healers could cleanse healing debuffs.

[Gachimuchi]

If all types of buffs stacked, but were scaled back to the point that they didn't completely break things(I'm sure this would take a great deal of effort to find the sweet spot) it would solve many of the issues certain classes have with overlapping debuffs.

It is probably the single most important thing to consider. If the devs chose not to do something like this they are basically skipping part 2 & 3 of their balancing philosophy and just nerfing abilities/changing them completely so other classes are required to fill the gaps.

For example, Blackguards are useless in 6v6 because they bring nothing to the table in the way of debuffs used for bringing down a guarded target(toughness, wounds, armor), they are already provided by Marauder.. Marauder debuffs would get dialed back some and so would Blackguard's, but together they would be stronger than the marauder debuffs would have been alone before. The amount of possibilities for different compositions begins to blossom with a change like this. The choice of running Black Orc or Blackguard suddenly becomes a point of contention; largely dependent on what a group prefers/needs/how it fits their play-style. Do they value an AoE snare or a 5s KD? A buff for their healers or debuffs for their enemy and random buffs for their own group? If they don't fear magic damage, maybe even ditching the Chosen entirely and running BG/Blorc/Mara for a triple armor debuff. Scary. But if they do that, they lose their triple wounds debuff(Chosen/Mara/BG). Decisions, decisions...

On order this can be applied to things like Knight/IB become more viable. Ancestor's Fury + Dirty Tricks. If a group were to run this they might consider not having a Slayer since Slayer doesn't get a 50% crit tactic. Or perhaps the IB keeps Oathfriend on a WH/WL exclusivley, only to swap it around for armor buffing when someone gets focused or giving the healers a willpower buff.

I think you get the point. Regardless, this is a huge undertaking and if the devs wouldn't want to go through the process of fine tuning every buff/debuff in the game I can totally understand. I would extrapolate that the method of testing would be making comps for a few 6 mans and putting them in a 6v6 scenario, letting them duke it out and observing the outcome.

[TenTonHammer]

Is the problem rather the strength or necessity of heal debuffs then? Or what causes them to be mandatory :^)

oRvR or "competetive WB v WB' needs to survive all the mass AoE flying around, this in turn neccistates strong healing which in turn requires strong heal debuffs

otherwise no one will ever will tough/armor stack WP's

[salaino]

Is the problem rather the strength or necessity of heal debuffs then? Or what causes them to be mandatory :^)

Healing debuffs are very strong, although guard helps mitigate them by a lot if you can't get them off. Being a zealot kinda got used to not being able to cleanse them. Zealots are in the same boat as WP with not being able to cleanse most if not all healing debuffs.