some feeling about classes

[grumcajs]

@mohokener1

- no1 talked about BO going loldps 2h with FO slotted turning him to choppa
BO can still provide assist dps while being tanky enough. I really do not know why to go full def on BO, turning him to immovable brick with 0 dmg output and just aoe snare spam bot. You have kotbs for this kind of play. Maybe if u expect fighting against lot of pugs, then it would make sense.

- double dok is pretty horrible in terms of dok being unable to cleanse IB debuffs (crit,heal,aoe snare etc.) yea they work better with zealots than with shamy (especially cuz tripple shatter)

- WAAAGH debuff was meant for BO ability though I have never specced it tbh so no idea if its that good

- Chop fasta is situational. Again - if you are looking for character with 1 perfect optimal spec, you should look for other chars. I remember I (average casual player) was changing specs depending on situation in the lakes, players I was running with or if I was just afk near mailbox waiting for sc pop.

If you have never seen any "organised" grps running with BO or choppa, hell or even with shamy (truth is I have rarely seen SHs...) then u should maybe check some old youtube vids.


If you do not know how to spec or to what aim, there are players that are good and I think they would provide you with advice and hints about spec,playstyle etc. (I do not fit there, I usually just asked and listened to learn something useful).

If your post is meant as whine, then u should make it clear and we would all tell you to roll chosen,dok or mara. These classes arent maybe easy way but they are indeed more mistake friendly to play.

[Lileldys]

@mohokener1

- no1 talked about BO going loldps 2h with FO slotted turning him to choppa
BO can still provide assist dps while being tanky enough. I really do not know why to go full def on BO, turning him to immovable brick with 0 dmg output and just aoe snare spam bot. You have kotbs for this kind of play. Maybe if u expect fighting against lot of pugs, then it would make sense.

- double dok is pretty horrible in terms of dok being unable to cleanse IB debuffs (crit,heal,aoe snare etc.) yea they work better with zealots than with shamy (especially cuz tripple shatter)

- WAAAGH debuff was meant for BO ability though I have never specced it tbh so no idea if its that good

- Chop fasta is situational. Again - if you are looking for character with 1 perfect optimal spec, you should look for other chars. I remember I (average casual player) was changing specs depending on situation in the lakes, players I was running with or if I was just afk near mailbox waiting for sc pop.

Why slot focussed offensive when you could just take a choppa who provides more than a 3rd tank?

Double DoK is the strongest setup for Melee Trains, double on-hit buff, turbo cleansing and M2 to cleanse IB. If the IB is busy spanking you with outgoing hd then he isn't guarding his dps.

WAAAGH is potato, coporeal resist isn't needed for destro imo. Also chosen debuffs this.

Chop Fasta is a really strong buff when used can give your group a massive damage boost. Everyone sees it as a counter to SL when it really isn't. 5s HD, 5s Execute from mara.

If you have never seen any "organised" grps running with BO or choppa, hell or even with shamy (truth is I have rarely seen SHs...) then u should maybe check some old youtube vids.

BO is incredibly strong with AOE snare uncleasable by WP, and Skull Thumper with proper assist is a lot of damage. Addon stat-steal and you have a decent package. Is used by all 6man guilds.

Choppa overall is iffy due to it's debuff type vs WP cleanse. Choppa is insanely strong vs pug, but can really feel a bit meh when fighting premades. With good covers you can bury healdebuffs in.

Shaman buff can means you don't need to play with chosen resist aura, but it's removable by KotBS + SM. Wouldn't be a bad change to switch it to an aura for SH/AM, or have it reworked in some way to be competitve with CH/Kn. Also Shaman is alright, but it can't compete for top healing vs Zealot/DoK. Shaman is a good kiter, and that's the strength the group needs to play at.

SH is fine right now. Old Vids just show sovereign and higher players really, where armour was so high SH/SW had to stack WeaponSkill to be somewhat effective.

[grumcajs]

Lileldys I was talking about BO going some balanced build that would provide assist dmg. not 3rd tank but 2nd. I do not mean these omg crits for 2k but something that can deal more than 100 dmg per hit thus providing some assist for mdps BO is able to boost.


And are we really talking about 6v6 premade fights here? Cuz all this would be pretty pointless if op is looking for ideal premade setup. we all know what ideal setups are on both sides...

[mohokoner1]

@mohokener1

- no1 talked about BO going loldps 2h with FO slotted turning him to choppa
BO can still provide assist dps while being tanky enough. I really do not know why to go full def on BO, turning him to immovable brick with 0 dmg output and just aoe snare spam bot. You have kotbs for this kind of play. Maybe if u expect fighting against lot of pugs, then it would make sense.

- double dok is pretty horrible in terms of dok being unable to cleanse IB debuffs (crit,heal,aoe snare etc.) yea they work better with zealots than with shamy (especially cuz tripple shatter)

- WAAAGH debuff was meant for BO ability though I have never specced it tbh so no idea if its that good

- Chop fasta is situational. Again - if you are looking for character with 1 perfect optimal spec, you should look for other chars. I remember I (average casual player) was changing specs depending on situation in the lakes, players I was running with or if I was just afk near mailbox waiting for sc pop.

If you have never seen any "organised" grps running with BO or choppa, hell or even with shamy (truth is I have rarely seen SHs...) then u should maybe check some old youtube vids.


If you do not know how to spec or to what aim, there are players that are good and I think they would provide you with advice and hints about spec,playstyle etc. (I do not fit there, I usually just asked and listened to learn something useful).

If your post is meant as whine, then u should make it clear and we would all tell you to roll chosen,dok or mara. These classes arent maybe easy way but they are indeed more mistake friendly to play.

still you don't get the point....

in a general way ...
tanks should be applying tonz of debuffs, CC and bullying everyone in enemy team while being able to stay alive as more possible while taking damage and guarding at the same time.... damage comes second...
the rest two healing classes work together on their own than with shammy (unfortunately) even two doks auras have something more interesting to bring on... Celerity, Vitality or whatever... their auras are unique and noone brings something like that... plus the cleanse... and burst aoe healing...

etc ets... there's no need to analyze and overanalyze.... shammy or blorc are still not the 1st choices in organised groups... i don't expect to find the "perfect" build because there isn't such a build.... things is as i said already so many times it's about safe choices....
it's like asking you... want 80euros now? or MAYBE 100euros in 2 months or so? logic says the 80euros now because it's the safe solution....
this goes for some classes.... classes that probably can do smthing less or classes that in theorycrafting can do more but probably you will NEVER see it coming? the classes i mentioned imho are NOT safe while they bring situational utility or NOT at all in their teams while others are considered MORE safe as choices and combo with other classes even better then these classes... in theorycrafting greenskins have the more and most utility than all.... when it comes to play them you see that you can't use even the 50% of it... in theory shaman is a monster with all this stuff he has, while playing specially in high scale fights you can use like 30% of the utility that class has.... while blorcs no matter how many buffs they have working like shamans.... situational or so hard to work with all this... in terms of competitive play and human abilities playing with them is less safe, while makes them not a first choice... that's the point i wanted to say...

i am playing a choppa and i don't play marauder but i know that marauder will always be a safer choice in an organised group
i have more fun with a shammy, but my zealot and dok will always be a safer solution in an organised group
chosen will always bringing a more steady utility with auras and tanks pretty well.... he has nothing to be jealous when compared with other tank careers and that's the reason he will be a safe choice over than a BG or a Blorc.... while chosen seems kinda more forgivable in term of mistakes than the other two tank classes.

my first post was about showing and sharing my thoughts about it...and i don't think there's a reason to overanalyze because in theorycrafting theres no end.... when it comes in action i bet you have seen the results yourself too... even in pugs (though i don't play with pugs) i am sure that everyone can see what i mean easily...

[mohokoner1]

Lileldys I was talking about BO going some balanced build that would provide assist dmg. not 3rd tank but 2nd. I do not mean these omg crits for 2k but something that can deal more than 100 dmg per hit thus providing some assist for mdps BO is able to boost.


And are we really talking about 6v6 premade fights here? Cuz all this would be pretty pointless if op is looking for ideal premade setup. we all know what ideal setups are on both sides...

i am talking mostly for organised groups... not pugs! so yes, indeed i am looking for a good optimal setup if not the best.
i put the term "Fun" out of this.... just numbers, utility and gamestuff in ACTION... not theorycrafting....
i am not whining or something, all this is just some thoughts that i wanted to share and nothing more than it... as everyone can see i am staying on classes without even bothering mentioning ANY class bugs, like taunt that is not working, SH pets etc etc...

[bwdaWAR]

I always felt that the Shaman was designed with supporting a kiting SH in mind. Similarly, that the BG and their Dark Protector was for buffing a DoK, the melee healer. Perhaps they do better in those situations?
On a side note, what is popular - this thread brings that up a few times - isn't necessarily the best. It's often the easiest (to play well) instead. That Chosen is more common that BO or BG, for example, doesn't mean the other two can't contribute to their groups.

[NeneBigun]

Speaking on choppas as I am one for my main:

1. You are basically saying marauder is a better choice because of mechanics? If choppa didn't have rage mechanic it would still do more damage than marauder becuase of the ability scaling and ability to use a 2h weapon, with that being said, you have to take inconsideration of TACTICS. No one can heal debuff as fast or as much as a choppa because its tactics(aside chosen aura), no one can fight as long as choppa and sustain the highest amount of dps ( not even chosen even with AP regen and what not). People de-value choppa because its standard to go full damage with choppa tactics and totally ignore the utility, thus bringing down its team synergy and value.

*Although a maruder may be be more tank due to monstrosity, it means nothing to a choppa who can soften the opponent up with both weapon skill debuff and toughness debuff in far much larger numbers than marauder buff. The maurders healing factor in monstrosity ISNT SIMPLY enough and is so easy to counter, as it can be blocked and parried, the DOT heal is next to nothing, when a heal debuff is applied, Yes we know these debuff can be cleansed but choppa can repply this debuff every 5 seconds almost minimum to no cost.

Rage is the only draw back, but rage is also another thing that devalues the choppa, rage makes the choppa squishy in forms of its defenses a severely lowed, but this too can be made up for depending on how the choppa chooses to build.

EX: parry, initiative, futile strikes ( considering they work), combined with mass wound values can make up for the choppas loss of defense while enraged. Abilities like try an hurt me with 25 sec cd( considering the trait red goes faster is active) can totally negate a melee threat. Along side his moral 1 shield.

Im not saying the listed above is perfect or anything, Im just making a point that marauder is only standard( in my eyes) because choppa( in my eyes) actually is one of the few classes that take skill to exploit its full potential, a potential that is massively overlooked by the population due to the majority choppa population building straight damage. We lack the defense and disrupt and survivability, and self sustaining utility, but thru the little sustain we do gain from our light to red zone rage, we gain alot of our negatives into positives, its just based on how you play. I believe classes are overlooked because of set standards that others have seen worked and been successful with, but i can also say ive seen great choppa/2 Bo/ 2 shaman 6mans, in some of the greenskin premades that truly show how a class can be played.

Another thing to note is the reason choppa needs a guard more so than other classes is because people understand how devastating they can be and will opt to go for a choppa over a maruder in terms of priority target, so ofc a choppa aside its rage mechanic would need a guard more, because unlike marauder, what we bring to the table is 10x more devastating that small utility that can be negated by the choppas mirror class EASILY.

[Kahvo]

Do SM get the mass slow that BO's get ..if not that REALLY needs to be fixed.

[mohokoner1]

I always felt that the Shaman was designed with supporting a kiting SH in mind. Similarly, that the BG and their Dark Protector was for buffing a DoK, the melee healer. Perhaps they do better in those situations?
On a side note, what is popular - this thread brings that up a few times - isn't necessarily the best. It's often the easiest (to play well) instead. That Chosen is more common that BO or BG, for example, doesn't mean the other two can't contribute to their groups.

i didn't said that they can't contribute.... a Guard from a tank will always be a guard buff and will always needed even if the tank is doing "almost" nothing at all... just sticking at 30 feet from the dps it's guarding (well not exactly nothing but you get the point)

i will agree.... some classes seem kinda like being working a Little better with some others, as the example of SH and Shaman... thing is that in RvR lakes you don't have the time (or luxury) to kite, usually there are 1 wb here, you see the enemy wb in front of you.... 3,2,1 fight! shaman has NO future or present in front lines there, same goes for SH... so no kitting.... while roaming...or small scale fights they can do indeed better... thing is that as not only me... Devs, gms and everyone else has said, this game is about RvR lakes... NOT scenarios or PvE... so there is where my target is with this post... that some classes come with some kind of major disadvantages..

[mohokoner1]

Do SM get the mass slow that BO's get ..if not that REALLY needs to be fixed.

don't know about SM... but well... i would love having the 20% more healing effects tactic he has while in RvR lakes... in fact from a while i read about SM the except some basic abilities he has same with blorc and chained rotations in general has many different tactics too.. like BW has healing debuff will Sorc has just a WillPower Debuff.... you can't really compare mirror classes for real..