[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[kryss]

Spoiler:

Fair?

Slowing down an advancing enemy? You already have a ranged perma snare on kitten.

Biased destro comment much? The "ranged permasnare" (LOL) is on the TTT stance, which is rarely used since it's the underperforming one. A WL can (and will) switch to it if needed, but so much for the ranged, since the pet gets instantly killed in 6v6 and wb situations (aoe simply deletes it as soon as it gets into the fray). Please retry

Keep "biased" and sarcasm off the Balance discussions - Penril.

[Bozzax]

Yeah you actually need 3 clicks and one GCD to use it and there is a move delay ofc, Maybe that is why so many pouncers don't use it all. It is still a ranged snare and handy 1v1 when you need to distance.

In team play, like I wrote many pages ago

In team setups it is a great assist tool with multiple unique properties. You can instantly target switch even when assisting mdps, rdps or a stealther that moved deep into enemy back lines. That jump means there are virtually no down time. Assisting ofc imply others apply the CC which you need in order for WL to be most effective. No other melee class has this great synergy with rdps or work as seamless in mixed groups.

Pouncing into the fray or sending you lion may get it or your self killed, agreed

[wargrimnir]

Lets look at how a pounce with snare can be used

• - depressure/save your BL clothie/Slayer buddy that is kiting for his life (NEW!)
  - escape certain death
  - instantly assist mdps and rdps regardless of you are being snared yourself or not
  - counter KB depressure
  - ignore any terrain obstacles (even Z axis)

• - Snare not required, Pounce would allow you to close distance and apply a snare yourself as your target is not moving full speed away from you, but moving half speed to attack your very likely already snared ally.
  - Snare not required, not even useful. You just need a target outside of the certain death area.
  - Snare not required, see 1st point. Target is likely already snared if it's being engaged by MDPS. RDPS could have a use-case.
  - Provided you didn't Pounce to your target first, otherwise it would be on CD and you wouldn't be able to Pounce back. Partially correct.
  - Snare not required, just a target in LoS and in range.

I like lists, those are easy.

[Bozzax]

If you would read my post again you could see I listed what made it more versatile then a normal ranged snare. Not how ranged snare pounce differs from pounce as it is now.

[Qwack]

Prop 1 (or some variation of it)
+ 15s Cooldown
+ 20-30% 5s snare on-cast

I play Order and we use WLs as our main melee now. I think this is a good approach and better fits the original intent of pounce as a gap closer. I would adjust it to a 40% snare though.

As a Shammy trying to kite, at least its not Pounce, Pounce, Pounce, Pounce DIE every time. There is no kiting from a WL in current form. The snare will fit a WLs group better. A Shammy can knockback (if up) and potentially cleanse to drop snare. If the knockback gets disrupted it becomes nasty for the Shammy. That's a more reasonable combat situation. Its not automatic death anywmore, but a Shammy can still die if things don't go perfect.

[footpatrol2]

I didn't read all this, just the beginning few posts.

Use a WL and use a SM with Wings of heaven. The snare from wings of heaven is uncleansable since it is morale. I think making the WL pounce and snare on the same ability... is a mistake.

Your suppose to combo stuff in this game to gain a larger effect.

[Loengrin]

The word of experienced players means nothing by itself. Give valid arguments (and evidence). Saying "I am an experienced rr100 from live" does not automatically win your discussions - Penril.

After recent patch which fixed some pet issues I spent less than hour to record couple videos. Both demonstate problems with pet ability "fetch". As we are talking about possibility to give pet another ability I think these problems are relevant to this topic.

The first video shows that fetch (insta-cast) do not work even though all requirements are met - pet is active, <65 ft, in line of sight. Pet keeps melee atacking target without fetching it.

Click here to watch on YouTube

Another one shows that pet and I were atacking marauder until 0:03, then I switched targets and press pet atack on 0:05 ( addon pure shows it). But fetch is not showing available until pet magicaly appears beside me on 0:13.

Click here to watch on YouTube

All these problems with pet would be critical in some situations.
So my point is if a class has no reliable pet then it wouldn't be logical to give more important abilities to pet. Welltimed use of these abilities can be crucial for result of pvp engagement.

[Kopfmotorrad]

The word of experienced players means nothing by itself. Give valid arguments (and evidence). Saying "I am an experienced rr100 from live" does not automatically win your discussions - Penril.

After recent patch which fixed some pet issues I spent less than hour to record couple videos. Both demonstate problems with pet ability "fetch". As we are talking about possibility to give pet another ability I think these problems are relevant to this topic.

The first video shows that fetch (insta-cast) do not work even though all requirements are met - pet is active, <65 ft, in line of sight. Pet keeps melee atacking target without fetching it.

Click here to watch on YouTube

Another one shows that pet and I were atacking marauder until 0:03, then I switched targets and press pet atack on 0:05 ( addon pure shows it). But fetch is not showing available until pet magicaly appears beside me on 0:13.

Click here to watch on YouTube

All these problems with pet would be critical in some situations.
So my point is if a class has no reliable pet then it wouldn't be logical to give more important abilities to pet. Welltimed use of these abilities can be crucial for result of pvp engagement.

Pet not fetching allthough attacking is probably a lag problem.
On some days I cant play any melee chars because only my autoattacks go through, and I get the message "target not in range" for 75% of the cases of my melee abilities. That happens when I already have collision with my target.
Sever seems to think I am further away, allthough my client thinks I am there. Funny, that autoattacks still hit.
I think that the pet also has these problems.

However, I also often experience getting pulled by a lion pet when it is clearly still at least 30 feet away and I am running away from it, so the lag between client and server also manifests itself the other way around.
There is nothing you can do about that really, other than give lions the same pull marauders have. (Plz dont tell me not to discuss mirror classes, the mirror pull is the only comparable ability in the game. so give it to the lions if it makes them happy. they will see how often the marauder pull is shitty and probably wish back for the pet pull.

[Loengrin]

Pet not fetching allthough attacking is probably a lag problem.
On some days I cant play any melee chars because only my autoattacks go through, and I get the message "target not in range" for 75% of the cases of my melee abilities. That happens when I already have collision with my target.
Sever seems to think I am further away, allthough my client thinks I am there. Funny, that autoattacks still hit.
I think that the pet also has these problems.

However, I also often experience getting pulled by a lion pet when it is clearly still at least 30 feet away and I am running away from it, so the lag between client and server also manifests itself the other way around.
There is nothing you can do about that really, other than give lions the same pull marauders have. (Plz dont tell me not to discuss mirror classes, the mirror pull is the only comparable ability in the game. so give it to the lions if it makes them happy. they will see how often the marauder pull is shitty and probably wish back for the pet pull.

Unfortunately it's not a lag. It happens each time when people kite with jumps and it happens only with pet abilities.

[wargrimnir]

The first video shows that fetch (insta-cast) do not work even though all requirements are met - pet is active, <65 ft, in line of sight. Pet keeps melee atacking target without fetching it.

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

Another one shows that pet and I were atacking marauder until 0:03, then I switched targets and press pet atack on 0:05 ( addon pure shows it). But fetch is not showing available until pet magicaly appears beside me on 0:13.

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

All these problems with pet would be critical in some situations.
So my point is if a class has no reliable pet then it wouldn't be logical to give more important abilities to pet. Welltimed use of these abilities can be crucial for result of pvp engagement.

You don't have a stance selected in the first video, so your pet has no attacks, only AA. If it's anything like the squig pets, or the other two lion activated abilities, it very likely applies on their next activated ability.

In the second one your pet chased after the marauder in one direction, and you can see it switch targets back to the BO a second or two after you attacked it. It needed to run back and popped up through the floor. If Pet pathing worked, that situation would have been worse as it would have needed to run around. If you count back from the point that your pet ran one way, and you ran another, it would take ~4s or so for your pet to return. Instead it took ~6s, which is easily accounted for by any sort of snare or CC the enemy team hit your pet with. We didn't see that happen, so this evidence is inconclusive one way or another.