[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[Kopfmotorrad]

Unfortunately it's not a lag. It happens each time when people kite with jumps and it happens only with pet abilities.

Did you read my post? I clearly stated that it is often not possible to play my melee chars because of the discrepancys between server and client. And I play from Europe. And its not just me, it is everyone in our guild having the same problems with melee abilities not being able to hit because the target is out of range allthough you already have collision with your target.
Then we log onto ranged damage alts and all is good. I dont care if you say its not lag, then give it another name. But its not just a white lion problem of abilities not firing. It is a general melee problem.

And one more point: jumping does not help with kiting because it will give you a minor snare.

[Loengrin]

You don't have a stance selected in the first video, so your pet has no attacks, only AA. If it's anything like the squig pets, it applies on their next activated ability.

In the second one your pet chased after the marauder in one direction, and you can see it switch targets back to the BO a second or two after you attacked it. It needed to run back and popped up through the floor. If Pet pathing worked, that situation would have been worse as it would have needed to run around.

Oh my what a silly goose am I! )
But wait

Click here to watch on YouTube
I wanted to make video shorter so it wouldn't be too tiring to watch, but ok. In full video you can see fetch works when target moves without jumping.

About second video:
Pet was close to me on 0:03. As I had no speed tactic for pet he shouldn't run away too far from me in 2 seconds so it took him 8 seconds to come back to the same place.

[Loengrin]

Did you read my post? I clearly stated that it is often not possible to play my melee chars because of the discrepancys between server and client. And I play from Europe. And its not just me, it is everyone in our guild having the same problems with melee abilities not being able to hit because the target is out of range allthough you already have collision with your target.
Then we log onto ranged damage alts and all is good. I dont care if you say its not lag, then give it another name. But its not just a white lion problem of abilities not firing. It is a general melee problem.

And one more point: jumping does not help with kiting because it will give you a minor snare.

1) I've already said that it happens ONLY with pet abilities, not with WL abilities (and he is melee char btw).

2) My video is evidence that jumping actually helps with not being fetch

[wargrimnir]

Oh my what a silly goose am I! )
But wait

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

I wanted to make video shorter so it wouldn't be too tiring to watch, but ok. In full video you can see fetch works when target moves without jumping.

About second video:
Pet was close to me on 0:03. As I had no speed tactic for pet he shouldn't run away too far from me in 2 seconds so it took him 8 seconds to come back to the same place.

You made your video shorter to cherry pick the instance where it wasn't working. Furthermore staging the video under a situation you know to be an issue in order to make your point appear more legitimate. When I posted my two videos they were uncut, in-game situations, where what was being demonstrated was real game experiences over a long duration of time. Take your first video and stick it on the bugtracker so a dev can address that specific issue.

Make another video in-game, 6v6 situations or more, annotating the instances that your pet is widely unreliable, and you'll have proven your point.

[Ninepaces]

Spoiler:

People should also consider swordmaster m2 in this discussion. That is two pounce like abilities on order side vs none on destro. Its a serious advantage to have instant gap closers like that. One or both should be heavily nerfed.

No we should not, because this topic is for WL and for WL only. If you have a problem with WoH you will have to wait for the appropriate topic to open.

[footpatrol2]

People should also consider swordmaster m2 in this discussion. That is two pounce like abilities on order side vs none on destro. Its a serious advantage to have instant gap closers like that. One or both should be heavily nerfed. (No they should not)

No we should not, because this topic is for WL and for WL only. If you have a problem with WoH you will have to wait for the appropriate topic to open.

No you can't isolate things like that in this game. There is too much intergroup dependance to ignore other aspects of what other classes can provide for your class of focus.

The WL has a gap closer. Order tanks has a gap closer, the SM with wings of heaven. If you pair the two you solve some issue's the WL has with pounce. Wings of heaven is GTAE. You lead in with Wings then pounce in with WL. The issue of pounce not being able to pounce onto the target is somewhat solved by using a wings of heaven SM. Your gaining a larger effect by pairing the two.

If you want to gain a larger effect from pounce on a WL team up with any spec of a SM.

This game is disgustingly brutal and not for the faint of heart.

Their shouldn't be a intense focus between the marauder and WL. They have different design intentions. They share a portion of a mechanic. But the WL also share's a portion of a mechanic with the SH. You can't isolate these things.

I don't think anything should be changed by the way concerning these two abilities.

[Ninepaces]

Spoiler:

People should also consider swordmaster m2 in this discussion. That is two pounce like abilities on order side vs none on destro. Its a serious advantage to have instant gap closers like that. One or both should be heavily nerfed.

No we should not, because this topic is for WL and for WL only. If you have a problem with WoH you will have to wait for the appropriate topic to open.

Yes, yes we should. Looking at a single class in a vacuum without looking at interactions within the faction is a terrible way to go about balancing things. Remember this is a team game, not 1v1 solo game. Either way, even WITHOUT considering sm M2 at the very least pounce should have a 10s cooldown. If you want a snare at the end of the pounce then it has to be 15-20s cooldown. Order already have a ton of snare, which also needs to be considered. Again, you cant look at a class without considering optimizations within the faction.

[gungnir08]

Prop 2
+ 15s Cooldown
Pounce becomes a Pet activated ability
WL and Pet both need to be within 65' of target

Pounce should be jump into your pet ability.
That way, if you have a lion on you, there's the chance the master will pop on your tail.

~ Possibly update Loner tactic to allow use of Pet-only abilities if spec'd for.
(Throat Bite, Brutal Pounce, Pounce as 5pt spec abilities)
Move Fey Illusion (axe core) to Guard, core.
Move Primal Fury (5pt axe) to Axe, core.
Move Throat Bite (guard core) to 5pt Axe.
Swap Brutal Pounce (9pt guard) and Echoing Roar (5pt guard).

I really like this proposal.

I especially like the way you've brought Loner and the WL's CC into the discussion, as well. I always thought these were pretty big problems with the WL in general, and your proposal with regards to that is actually somewhat elegant, I think. Making Throat Bite a spec ability stops the tactic change from being too strong, in my opinion, while still making it a much-needed buff.

Back to Pounce, though. Would you be willing to entertain also swapping Pounce to Core and putting Fetch in as the 5 point Hunter ability instead? You could even shift it up if you so desire, but I think that Pounce is arguably the most powerful at the earliest point where you can possibly get it (i.e. when there's probably not going to be much coordinated counterplay to respond to a WL using it). Also, if the idea with having TB, Brutal Pounce, and Pounce all being 5 point spec abilities in different trees is to spread out the WL's CC, I think that Fetch is more akin to actual CC than Pounce is.

This change would bring Pounce to a level 40 Core ability (kinda analogous to the WE/WH self punt in terms of being a late-received mobility tool), while arguably making it more useful as you've suggested. In addition to the other changes in this specific proposal, I think this could be a game-changer for the WL.

[noisestorm]

Spoiler:

People should also consider swordmaster m2 in this discussion. That is two pounce like abilities on order side vs none on destro. Its a serious advantage to have instant gap closers like that. One or both should be heavily nerfed.

No we should not, because this topic is for WL and for WL only. If you have a problem with WoH you will have to wait for the appropriate topic to open.

Yes, yes we should. Looking at a single class in a vacuum without looking at interactions within the faction is a terrible way to go about balancing things. Remember this is a team game, not 1v1 solo game. Either way, even WITHOUT considering sm M2 at the very least pounce should have a 10s cooldown. If you want a snare at the end of the pounce then it has to be 15-20s cooldown. Order already have a ton of snare, which also needs to be considered. Again, you cant look at a class without considering optimizations within the faction.

We should? I'd say no to that though. While one cannot perfectly balance a class completely in isolation, its not necessary to put up Wings in this thread at all since we:
*Have another proposal for this skill already (which will hopefully be edited soon, or i have to close it down like i wrote there already)
*The whole direction of this thead goes into the corner of basically nerfing pounce, while adjusting its utility slightly
*Just because someone else has a similar skill, doesnt mean it affects the balance of WL at all.

Also we want to keep discussions as clean of offtopic as possible. Engaging into a Wings discussion here will just stir up sh*t which we do not want at all. Wait for WoH to turn up in the discussion section and then you can complain as much as you like.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

If you put a snare on pounce your taking away some of the need for a WL to be paired with a SM for his wings.

The snare coming from wings solve's some of the issue's the WL has. You can't isolate these things. If you pair the two it makes the WL overall pouncing strategy stronger. To ignore this would be a mistake.

This game isn't WoW where each class is suppose to perform independant of each other. Classes have missing components by design that are suppose to be paired with other classes to gain a larger affect in this game. If you choose to ignore this, your ignoring a large portion of the game. Your also hurting other classes viability by ignoring this.

Wings itself doesn't have to be discussed to be changed in this thread. But Wings should be considered when making changes to the WL. Wings was put in this game to support the WL. Its pretty obvious.

The WL has problems with pounce by design. Wings solves some of these problems. A snare on pounce would be a mistake.

Pounce really shouldn't be touched.

Pounce (or any other WL skill, for that matter) should be viable whether you are grouped with a SM, KotBS or IB. We don't care about racial groups, and we are not discussing WoH - Penril.

Spoiler:

I'm only pointing out that one ability compliments another by design. Do you disagree?
I'm purposefully trying to leave out any racial group stuff in my arguments. Your projecting because you know my post history penril. - footpatrol2

First, learn what "projecting" means before using it again in a sentence.

Second, we are discussing Pounce in this thread and the possibility of giving it a snare/root to justify giving it a CD. You are against this proposal because you don't want to, and I quote: "take away some of the need for a WL to be paired with a SM", ignoring the fact that:

1) The WL is not always grouped with a SM.
2) Even if he was, WoH is a M2 and therefore not available at all times.
3) No class should have a need of ONE, and only ONE, particular class in order to be competitive. This reduces group diversity. If Pounce without a snare requires you to be grouped up with a SM, then maybe the snare is justified so he can group with other classes as well.

Don't edit this post again, and refrain from discussing WoH again. This is your last warning - Penril.