Archetype predetermination

[th3gatekeeper]

Actually something that would be VERY cool to see, would be a system that was proposed on the forums.

Rather than create a game that relies 100% on group play, you add a flavor of rock paper scissors to the game.

So tank classes would have their max "damage resist" from melee called at like 75% but resists capped at 25% - making all tanks subject to "magic" damage.

You make all leather/medium armor classes a 50/50% split. So these classes would be more balanced.

Then you make all light armor classes phys damage capped at 25%, but resists allowed to go up to 75%. This would make them VERY susceptible to phys damage.



The advantages I see to this, would be each "archtype" would also have classes that is its phenomenal against, but also classes its weak to.

So a BW might actually want to focus a Chosen now, who would want to build towards disrupt but would be tanky (as they are now) to melee attacks but that same BW, would have a lower phys damage cap, making them weaker towards melee damage.

So not only would classes play rolls, but it would also create certain weaknesses/strengths to each type of class too.


I think the beauty of this, is say you do pick a tank, and that tank wants to "try" to be a 2h DPS tank, they can actually excel in SOME forms of combat by going for the light armor classes and being a threat.

On the flip side, it would make a Sorc/BW "faceoff" much longer as they would both be dealing much less damage to eachother.

[kweedko]

Actually something that would be VERY cool to see, would be a system that was proposed on the forums.

Rather than create a game that relies 100% on group play, you add a flavor of rock paper scissors to the game.

So tank classes would have their max "damage resist" from melee called at like 75% but resists capped at 25% - making all tanks subject to "magic" damage.

You make all leather/medium armor classes a 50/50% split. So these classes would be more balanced.

Then you make all light armor classes phys damage capped at 25%, but resists allowed to go up to 75%. This would make them VERY susceptible to phys damage.



The advantages I see to this, would be each "archtype" would also have classes that is its phenomenal against, but also classes its weak to.

So a BW might actually want to focus a Chosen now, who would want to build towards disrupt but would be tanky (as they are now) to melee attacks but that same BW, would have a lower phys damage cap, making them weaker towards melee damage.

So not only would classes play rolls, but it would also create certain weaknesses/strengths to each type of class too.


I think the beauty of this, is say you do pick a tank, and that tank wants to "try" to be a 2h DPS tank, they can actually excel in SOME forms of combat by going for the light armor classes and being a threat.

On the flip side, it would make a Sorc/BW "faceoff" much longer as they would both be dealing much less damage to eachother.

Forget about that, people here do not want a real balance, they all about - tanks must tank, heals must heal, and dps can dps if you playing op class in other ways(playing in not primary spec like healers speced in dd, or underpowerd classes) you go eat a frog.

[th3gatekeeper]

Actually something that would be VERY cool to see, would be a system that was proposed on the forums.

Rather than create a game that relies 100% on group play, you add a flavor of rock paper scissors to the game.

So tank classes would have their max "damage resist" from melee called at like 75% but resists capped at 25% - making all tanks subject to "magic" damage.

You make all leather/medium armor classes a 50/50% split. So these classes would be more balanced.

Then you make all light armor classes phys damage capped at 25%, but resists allowed to go up to 75%. This would make them VERY susceptible to phys damage.



The advantages I see to this, would be each "archtype" would also have classes that is its phenomenal against, but also classes its weak to.

So a BW might actually want to focus a Chosen now, who would want to build towards disrupt but would be tanky (as they are now) to melee attacks but that same BW, would have a lower phys damage cap, making them weaker towards melee damage.

So not only would classes play rolls, but it would also create certain weaknesses/strengths to each type of class too.


I think the beauty of this, is say you do pick a tank, and that tank wants to "try" to be a 2h DPS tank, they can actually excel in SOME forms of combat by going for the light armor classes and being a threat.

On the flip side, it would make a Sorc/BW "faceoff" much longer as they would both be dealing much less damage to eachother.

Forget about that, people here do not want a real balance, they all about - tanks must tank, heals must heal, and dps can dps if you playing op class in other ways(playing in not primary spec like healers speced in dd, or underpowerd classes) you go eat a frog.

This has been my impressions as well. Ive suggested many things, and I can say that a majority of players I talk to have this "Bro, I played LIVE" attitude where its more about being able to re-live their LIVE days, than to have a more fun game.

This wasnt even my idea, but it would bring a whole new flavor to the game. Now you would need a melee train or ranged Phys damage to take out an enemy caster... Or you need an enemy caster to kill your tank, etc etc.

It would make BW/Sorcs really only good for tank killing, which would maybe actually make them more balanced.

This was one of the coolest things I saw though and I was surprised it didnt get more traction as it really seems like a fantastic "model" on how to better balance games than to force people into archtypes.

[TenTonHammer]

On my phone so I'm not gonna bother quoting

Swapping around resist cap does nothing nor does it resolve any balance issues

Damage vurabilites are countered by guard, hold the line, and heals and ranged already dies once melee/physical dps catches them


Secondly if I were a tank and I was made MORE vurable to magic you know what I would do? Use a shield for hold the line! Making. 2h tanks even less viable

Shifting around resists caps will not change how the game played, you can change around resist caps but it wouldn't change that AM and SW are one of the best 1 v 1 duelists and tanks already spec dodge and disrupt


Going 2h tanks isn't about dealing damage it's about getting some specfic type of utility such as 2H chosen being able to apply crippiling strikes better

Your resists suggestion does nothing but make bombing more effective and does nothing to address "real balance issues"

The reson people want tanks to tank is becuase that is their role In groups, in a competitive enviorment

In a group or serious environment you would be absurd to bring a non SnB tank becuase you lose a lot of surviveabilty, utility, and access to powerful tactic like destined for victory

you can go dps 2h, you can play dps healer their specs exist and are viable, for some more than others and excel in certian situations such as small scale pvp or open rvr warband stuff


You can want all the "lore variety" you want but let's get real it would be a pain in the ass to balance hence why mirror exist

Variety exits with the multiple viable specs most classes have for diffrent situations

[Bulgril]

Again just thinking out loud, but... why do we need class balance anyway. Listen:

You're a dwarf slayer. You're charging against a dark elf sorcerer. Now, if you're foolish enough to charge from a distance that allows the sorcerer to do his magic against you, well, if the spell isn't somehow dispelled, you're screwed. As in, you turn into stone. And then you explode.

But if you're a dark elf sorcerer, and you're foolish enough to stand too close to the melee brawl, then a dwarf slayer pops out of nowhere, and he turns you into blood sausage, no magic involved. Which makes sense.

As a mage, I'm expecting is massive damage, but also massive vulnerability to melee. As an slayer, massive melee damage, but vulnerability to everything. And so on. That'd be realistic. I don't need to survive a mage, I don't expect to. What I do expect is that if I get to touch him, he'll feel it. And so on.

What's just unnerving is a tank who can ralentize you, ralentize you, ralentize you, and yeah I'm dead.

I'm going to start developing one day, and I'm going to find out why all these logical things are visibly impossible to implement for some reason.

[Luth]

WAR has four, for each race and side of the conflict... IDK.

There are 24 classes in the game, with overlapping mirrors, which is indeed hard to balance but makes the game far more interesting.
The archetype is the color set and the class is the picture. The color set is restricted, but you are free to paint what you want with the colors given. If you want a picture with all colors, you need more then one archetype.
Strict archetypes are a core game design decission and simply can't be changed without a start from scratch (regardless how often certain people demand it).
Furthermore it prevents lame group setups like 5x fotm DD plus 1x fotm healer from being successful in any non-PUG fights.

Spoiler:

Again just thinking out loud, but... why do we need class balance anyway. Listen:

You're a dwarf slayer. You're charging against a dark elf sorcerer. Now, if you're foolish enough to charge from a distance that allows the sorcerer to do his magic against you, well, if the spell isn't somehow dispelled, you're screwed. As in, you turn into stone. And then you explode.

But if you're a dark elf sorcerer, and you're foolish enough to stand too close to the melee brawl, then a dwarf slayer pops out of nowhere, and he turns you into blood sausage, no magic involved. Which makes sense.

As a mage, I'm expecting is massive damage, but also massive vulnerability to melee. As an slayer, massive melee damage, but vulnerability to everything. And so on. That'd be realistic. I don't need to survive a mage, I don't expect to. What I do expect is that if I get to touch him, he'll feel it. And so on.

What's just unnerving is a tank who can ralentize you, ralentize you, ralentize you, and yeah I'm dead.

I'm going to start developing one day, and I'm going to find out why all these logical things are visibly impossible to implement for some reason.

The gameplay situation between the slayer and the sorc would be exactly like described. About the tank permanently slowing you (i guess that's meant): As a healer you shouldn't have any problems.
The point is: This game was neither balanced for 1vs1 nor will it ever be. You will always have an archetype who has an advantage against you; therefore groups need to be mixed with different archetypes to cover weaknesses.
This is a group vs group or warband vs warband game and you rely on others to survive.
http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/P ... sus_Player
Edit:

Spoiler:

Inb4 Torque pastel color joke.

[Stortz]

Healers normally have 3 'archetypes'

• direct healer
  resource stack > heal/ dps
  lifesteal

your dps may come in handy and shift the scales a bit
but unless you have a great build in mind, don't expect people to tolerate your 'just b urself' 'i play for fun'
this is a group game and it's somewhat competitive. every pvp game is. unless you're bringing something to the table people are not just laugh it off and find the non-healing zealot funny

my advice is try to think on what you want to do first
then chose your class second, based on the idea of how you want to play

[niikuu]

I remember how much pressure there was on players back in the day, especially if you wanted to have any sort of a guild. Ironically, it also created this odd underground-brotherhood of "rogue" dps healers, which I kind of enjoyed in the end.

[th3gatekeeper]

On my phone so I'm not gonna bother quoting

Swapping around resist cap does nothing nor does it resolve any balance issues

Damage vurabilites are countered by guard, hold the line, and heals and ranged already dies once melee/physical dps catches them


Secondly if I were a tank and I was made MORE vurable to magic you know what I would do? Use a shield for hold the line! Making. 2h tanks even less viable

Shifting around resists caps will not change how the game played, you can change around resist caps but it wouldn't change that AM and SW are one of the best 1 v 1 duelists and tanks already spec dodge and disrupt


Going 2h tanks isn't about dealing damage it's about getting some specfic type of utility such as 2H chosen being able to apply crippiling strikes better

Your resists suggestion does nothing but make bombing more effective and does nothing to address "real balance issues"

The reson people want tanks to tank is becuase that is their role In groups, in a competitive enviorment

In a group or serious environment you would be absurd to bring a non SnB tank becuase you lose a lot of surviveabilty, utility, and access to powerful tactic like destined for victory

you can go dps 2h, you can play dps healer their specs exist and are viable, for some more than others and excel in certian situations such as small scale pvp or open rvr warband stuff


You can want all the "lore variety" you want but let's get real it would be a pain in the ass to balance hence why mirror exist

Variety exits with the multiple viable specs most classes have for diffrent situations

I do think it makes a difference.

Think of a class like Mara, they would have their resists cap raised to 50%. This would be HUGE with their ability to eat damage from BWs. You bring up AMs and SW, which would get a nerf in their ability to take Phys damage since their cap would be lower than most AMs run atm. so it makes them more susceptible to phys damage.

I am not saying this TO make 2H tanks more viable, all I am saying is people will run 2H tanks regardless of what happens. Making light armor wearers take more phys, will help that, and magic users will be able to kill them easier, so its a tradeoff.

Im also not saying it solves any balance issues. I am merely saying that it adds more flavor to the game. Right now everything is balanced within a party each doing their own roles. I think there could also be room for some rock paper scissors so that certain classes become stronger against others.

So dont get me wrong, I am not saying this TO balance 2H tanks, that was just one example of the impact this type of thing will do... The goal with this is to make each class, stronger against certain classes but keep a weakness as a "counter" to their.

Like I said, one example that would be clearly seen are back line casters would be much more difficult to nuke if you were a caster, since their resists would go way up. So it would take a class like SW, to kill a back line caster, or somehow have a melee train get up to them. An AM would be weaker against Phys damage. WP wear heavy armor correct? Well, they would be weaker against caster DPS. Each class starts having a weakness. I think what this enables is very attractive GROUP play "meta" options, where now you care more about the standard 2-2-2 but also want to build in counters to certain classes, but it allows in PUG vs PUG matches, the ability to impact the playfield more if you know who your class counters.

I think one of the biggest nerfs would actually be towards BW/Sorcs as they would lose significant damage against everyone but tanks, but gain damage on tanks.
Light armor wearers would become more susceptible to phys, but take MUCH less damage from other casters.
Medium armor users are already around 50% phys reduction, and would gain some moderate boost to magic resistance, by increasing their cap further, again, making those back line casters hurt just a little less.

[TenTonHammer]

I do think it makes a difference.

Think of a class like Mara, they would have their resists cap raised to 50%. This would be HUGE with their ability to eat damage from BWs.

Becuase that is definatly what the strongest MDPS in the game needs

You bring up AMs and SW, which would get a nerf in their ability to take Phys damage since their cap would be lower than most AMs run atm. so it makes them more susceptible to phys damage.

RDPS are already very susceptible to phys dmg, if melee can get on top of these 2 classes their already dead, all this would do is just make TTK lower

I am not saying this TO make 2H tanks more viable, all I am saying is people will run 2H tanks regardless of what happens. Making light armor wearers take more phys, will help that, and magic users will be able to kill them easier, so its a tradeoff.

All people would just go SnB tanks with DPS spec tanks because their not retarded to want to die even faster to RDPS, making 2h tanks less viable and less useful

Its a shitty trade off, espically when you consider other implications a lowered resist cap has, as it makes resists debuffs like KOTBS/CHOSEN auras, heavens blade etc even more powerful and the last thing KOTBS, and chosen need are to become even more mandatory/powerful

Im also not saying it solves any balance issues. I am merely saying that it adds more flavor to the game. Right now everything is balanced within a party each doing their own roles. I think there could also be room for some rock paper scissors so that certain classes become stronger against others.

So this suggestion does nothing to fix this games balance issuess but rather creates an even bigger mess, all in the name of some forced "flavor"