Destro vs Order

[Penril]

What exactly is this thread trying to accomplish?

[bloodi]

What exactly is this thread trying to accomplish?

There is a ton of arguments on the balance forums that baasically boil down to "no, because order has it better" and people accepts it as it was a fact.

The point of this thread is for people to explain how much better order has it, since it seems to be so clear for so many people.

[Jaycub]

What exactly is this thread trying to accomplish?

It's 1st and formeost a shitpost, but also trying to create a dialoge about something that has been bothering me for a long time. I wan't to see exactly what peoples feelings are regarding order vs destro balance

Spoiler:

WAY TOO MUCH ZIIPPY WATER ALSO

[roadkillrobin]

I don't really know what to say to you about this, order has about 50rr worth of stats extra in every party with meta comps.

Wrong again, all order crit buffs don't all stack.

Also you're completly wrong.

Base crit chance


Just Dirty Tricks


Both Dirty Tricks and Leading Shots

[Oldschool]

Just a question to this Topic:

Is there a Reason why Order have 2 classes with ranged KnockDowns? BW and SW.
And Destro have None?! Or did I miss somehting?
For me this is unbalanced. Ranged knockdown is a killerskill specialy against healers.

[Reesh]

Just a question to this Topic:

Is there a Reason why Order have 2 classes with ranged KnockDowns? BW and SW.
And Destro have None?! Or did I miss somehting?
For me this is unbalanced. Ranged knockdown is a killerskill specialy against healers.

It's the same, as if I would ask, why Mara has so much offensive and defensive utility, that it almost cannot be compared to any order dps in those terms, and is included in every pre-made, since good des party without that class doesn't exist.

Same would go for doks, their ability to cleanse everything (I know, there is a thread about it).

Basically, that would be a sh*t post.

Yet I'm not, since in this thread we're trying to observe the larger scheme of overall balance. Same as Jaycub I'm trying to see those arguments, that order is overpowered, since I fail to find them.
So, I'll keep on reading while trying to be proven otherwise.

[Chaoself]

I'll try and list what I know then,

>Crit

Order:
Knight - 10% crit for party, virtually 100% uptime and AoE / 10% offensive crit for all targets within 30ft of knight (can't use both)
IB - 10% melee crit for defensive target and self, no CD but single target and costs grude and is tied to an attack
SW - 15% crit for the entire group except themselves (tactic based on crit)

Destro:
Mara - Deeply Impaled tactic, 10% crit for on any target you impale
BG - 10% crit in AoE tied to an attack with 100% uptime (if not avoided)
WE - 50% party wide crit M3 (not happening in current morale gain environment)

Ini debuffs are pretty well mirrored so I wont mention them.

As for anti crit mechanics, I don't really think any stand out on order but for destro...

WE - 25% reduced crit tied to an ability+tactic
BG - 205% reduced crit tied to an ability, 5 sec cooldown 10 sec duration (requires full mechanic)
Choppa - 100% reduced crit tied to a exhaustive move on a 30 sec cd with 10 sec duration.
IB - same as BG

BG isn't meta right now, and that really hurts things crit wise for destro imo. Marauders also don't run deeply impaled for whatever reason im not sure, same for WE's and their anti crit tactic. BG also has problems running it's crit buff because it's tied to 2H atm, and giving up the KD is pretty ****.

This is just what I see for crit, too lazy to go into other things right now.

edit: added SW and IB

As a very old WE player: Evenomed Blade, awful ability, 1 waste of tactic slot. Crit one, Antisnare/Antiroot with +25% speed or another very good one like Feinted Position one is what makes that tactic worthless. As a WE you need to kill fast or die by rdps. I doubt you played a WE for more than 5 minutes to say that lol.

[Gachimuchi]

Whats better in group oriented game? Have selfish or group wide oriented abbilities?

You say no order has self crit tactic?
SW - BullsEye 20% crit if he crit(mirror to mara) combined with leading shoots(15%crit for group when he crit) makes him best ranged for duo with BW(15% more crit,2rkds,2heal debuffs,both hit like a truck)

True, the tactic IS mirrored to Order. But SW is not the mirror of marauder. While their stance mechanic is the same, Marauder is the equivalent of WL in terms of role. SW is the mirror of SH. Additionally the crit tactic is essentially wasted on SW because SW is not meta. The extra crit provided by a SW doesn't overshadow the liability of having a RDPS and their extreme lack of damage. Wheras the best MDPS on Destru has access to it. And a 50% inc crit damage tactic. Hm.

I'd also like you prove BW/SW groups are meta. Because I haven't seen it. SW is actually incredibly underwhelming since it can't come close to putting out the damage of a BW yet still has all the pitfalls of a ranged DPS. 2x BW is better than a BW/SW. Even so, BW is used in a meta proc based group, wheras SW is absent.

IB -sweet revenge 15% crit if above 50grudge + stack with spamable 10%crit chance skill also for oath friend.

Choppa+slayer both 15% crit chance for 2h tree.

Extra crit on a tank that has no on-crit tactics or abilities(like CS or +50% damage for instance) means literally nothing.

Said choppa/slayer tactics are never specced for in practice and they are mirrored to classes that share the same role on either side. I don't understand your point.

Even if every dps party member spent 50rr points in to crit it still give max 14%crit chance. While order group comps can have 10-25%extra crit for "free"D

There's that idiotic argument again. Did you not learn anything from your economics class? There is a thing called opportunity cost. Order can have 10% extra offensive or offensive/heal crit for 'free' because their BiS tank, KoTBs already has it. SW is not BiS, it is absolutely worst in slot for DPS. Exchanging a good dps class for a bad dps to buff the other remaining one with 15% crit bonus isn't viable. Marauder on the other hand, literally can get 20-30% extra crit for free. It is already present in every meta group.

[Gachimuchi]

Spoiler:

I don't really know what to say to you about this, order has about 50rr worth of stats extra in every party with meta comps.

Wrong again, all order crit buffs don't all stack.

Also you're completly wrong.

Base crit chance


Just Dirty Tricks


Both Dirty Tricks and Leading Shots

No I'm actually part right. Dirty Tricks + Leading shots = All order crit buffs ?????

Anyway Dirty tricks leading shots stacking is noted. It still doesn't change anything.

[Gnarlimus]

warband much gachimuchi?
order can do two parties in the warband as 1-3-2
kotbs, sw, bw, bw, wp, rp. this is for ranged aoe bombing setup.

but ofcourse the only thing anyone does here is stack slayer and bright wizard. because it is easy, and effective and thats just on players. hardly anyone experiments they just use the meta.

the shadow warrior has his place, he is not as bad as you assume. he is just not being utilized by order in any premade warbands.

Descent/Structure