Destro vs Order

[Zanilos]

@Haojin, I'm trying to gear my Mage for raid, so I can't really take all your points and break them down one-by-one. Not enough time.
Just some tips. Find some better Mara players who make the spec work, that understand that being alive and layering dots, stripping morale, is more important than the kill feed. Try to find some Sorcs that can play unguarded at 100foot. If you don't think you can? Don't continue to read.

Then find a couple of BOs that appreciate, Youz see me blok dat, Something you have completely missed is that BO build Morale like a **********. Pair that up M4. Try it. If you can't try it, get better BOs. Don't put so much focus around Chosens. @Razid1987

Bad gas works. Works very well. Get 2. Then as WB leader call it, tell 1 guy he is number 1. the other number 2. Call the gas at intervals. 65ft range means you can do some crazy **** with self punt to get into the back. I think Reesh used it in our WBs and a guy from Chlopi, can't remember his name.

Ban AOE punts. Fight some people work out who is guarding who. Focus the damage. Focus the knockbacks.

Use MDPS dok. Ask @Ade for help. Used him in WBs a couple of times, nice player.

Also, you forgot WP morale dump. Casually forgot the DPS zealot/dok from destro groups, oh and forgot to mention the AOE wounds debuffs from either side when building groups.

We allready know all these things. DPS Zealot doesn't have the same aplication as a dps RP since you don't get the crit buffs that order have acess to means it's a massive irrelaibillty. It's better to just run a Chosen for this purpse and get the static 25% healdebuff. (Especially since the crit from gear is pretty low atm)

I do dps test on all clases we run in our warband consistantly and the differencee between a Bad Gas Squigs and Morale Drain Marauder compared to Sorcs and even Choppas are so high that you can't run 4 of em. You start loosing way to much dps and become even more dependant on morale dumps.

It's not really true what you're saying either. Destro don't have more tools to play with. And moast of em are worse options then order counterparts aswell the only difference being the morale modifactions that Destro can do and that their spread out over more classes compared to Order who got pretty much all their stuff in 2 tanks, 3 dps and 2 healers. (3 if you count AM Morale pump)

After playing with and seeing your math. I think you are a very unreliable source of information.

Not knowing how to use the tools you have is not the same as not having them. Try harder.

[Vdova]

Spoiler:

I see this posted everywhere,

"Destro's main advantage is morale gain, while order has better static gameplay"

I'm interested mostly in the latter part about order having better static stuff, which I assume is mostly connected to the kotbs? Anyone care to go into depth here about what order is overperforming on and what destro lacks to compensate for that? Obviously barring anything having to do with morales.

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/shttps://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=80
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

You can "understand" and "see" from Azarael's post how destro designed around fast morale gain - drain. Just check the numbers of morale pump from destro and order.

Let me show an example to you:

When the things come warband vs warband [ Which is main aspect of the game in my book at least 12 vs 12 ],

What is the main pressure of order warband ?

-M2 from BW [ 9,5 second with morale tactic ]

-Shatter Limbs from Slayer [ 20 second cooldown ] + Inevitable Doom [ Spamable with Whispering Winds ] + Rampage [ Every 5 seconds with Whispering Winds with Furious Mode ]

-No Escape [M3] from Knight with 1 AM morale pump [ 13,5 second ] + Crit buff [Defensive Support]

-Whispering Winds from SM [ 20 second cooldown, 5 sec decrease cooldowns] + [Defensive Support]

What is the counter from destruction:

You need:

-Marauders [Morale Drain] to counter M2 from BW. [ And trust me, you can't use many marauders in warband cause of dps output ] + M2 [ 24 seconds unbuffed, with Get Movin' + Ere we Goes Again from Shaman, using 2 tactics, 18 seconds ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Chop Fasta from Choppa [Countering Shatter Limbs only for 2 mins - if you fight agaist more than 2 slayers you're pretty ****.] [ Offensive Support ]

-DoK M2 [1 minute cooldown, 24 seconds to reach] [ Countering Shatter Limbs ] + AoE cleanse [ Already nerfed ]

-Bad Gas from SH [ 20 second cooldown, Countering dps pressure, actually not worth it agaist Whispering Winds, same cooldown ] [And trust me again, you can use 4 slayers in warband but you can't use 4 SH in warband cause of dps output ] and actually the only way to make your squig dps ok is M2 [ Unshakeable Focus, requires Morale boost tactic to use it effectively, 16 seconds with morale tactic ]

-Crimson Death from BG [ Crit Buff, Countering dps output, needs 2 hander= Squishy buff ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Cripling Strikes from Chosen [ Damage reducer, Countering crit buff, You need to stack with Crit, you dont have to use 2 hander for it but you have to use Oppressing Blows [Crit Buff, requires 2hander] + the abilities spammable abilities requires 2hander ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Blast Wave of Chosen [ Countering crit buff, AoE wounds debuff, 20 feet, 15 second cooldown]

-M2 of Sorc, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff, requires morale tactic, 24 seconds unbuffed, 9,5 seconds with morale tactic ]

-M2 of Zealot, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff's dps output, 11 second with morale tactic ]

Abstract for everyone:

Order classes are more stabilized with their mainstream classes, BW [ Morale + Dps ] - Knight [ Defensive + Support ] - SM [ Defensive + Support ] - Slayer [Utility + Dps ].

Order warbands can play like this:
4X [ 1 Knight + 1 SM + 1 BW + 1 Slayer + 2 WP ] [ of course it's just an example and need more utility like dps runepriest, engineer and morale pumper AM ]

If the things come for destro, you have to use a melee SH [ Utility + lack of dps] - Maraduer [ Utility + Lack of dps ] - Choppa [ lol Utility because of cooldown + Dps ] and Offensive tanks [2 hander BG + Chosen] so the only way to close the gap is: Destro morale tactics.

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro? Mistress of the Marsh debuffs initiative while Sticky Feetz debuffs Elemental resistance which is an undesirable effect. I see synergy with Magus rift which could prove useful. In any case not balanced, but I don't know how potent it is really.

Black Horror from Sorc - 80 init debuff
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Black Orc's Da Biggest Beilow with aoe abilities. [ random stat steal but it works]

Marauder Wave of Mutilation
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Witch Elves "Kiss of Agony" proc with OyK
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

premade warbands lmao

Let me clear something up for you, this game is balanced around the 6 man level. Not the WB level where you can do pretty much anything and you just dump damage morales when the WB leader says so and aside from that you just do whatever you want.

Delete the game.

Let me debunk this little whine post of yours, that destro is so sad with it's tools and order so op.

M2 of BW combined with morale tactic. Against a coordinated warband it doesn't put enough pressure anymore. Stand together in a blob, and it's like nothing, as the AoE effect will spread out evenly. Order would need at least 6 BWs with coordinated morale drop to make it work against force of warband or more, and such numbers of BWs in one warband is completly and uterrly useless. Also, running morale tactic as a BW in a bomb wb is really bad.

Slayers spammable ID with whispering winds. Argument that it's powerfull in warband play is laughable. ID requires a target, that would mean that a slayer has to be INSIDE des wb. Also, it cannot have more then one application per player, so basically it's getting cleansed by doks without doing much. When it comes to consistent dps from slayer it's still a flurry spam, which is mirrored by choppas lotsa choppin.
Rampage every 5secs. Again, it requires whispering winds up, and again, totally useless. Dropping rage back to 0 just to get rampage effect during a wb fight is idiotic move, gimping your dmg when you need it to actually kill something. You drop rage when getting pressured, so basically when wb fight is most likely lost.

And the bad gas squig case, since couple of strong arguments mentioned shatter limbs. It's dps isn't bad when itemized properly and good itemization is a must. Also proper renown point speccing. If an SH goes out into wb by just respeccing then well, it's damage is going to be bad. And bad gas squigs are REQUIRED, so I'm literally laughing when I don't see them in organized warbands. Run two of them at least and you'll see the difference.
Positioning of using bad gas is key, one tool helps with it - using sticky squigz to knock yourself onto the healer line through any tank, mdps blob. Slayer doesn't have access to such trick and is inflicted upon body blocking.

That will be all for now.

If Slayer does not use "power throught" tactic(no drop rage) in warband composition,I would replace him for someone who is more competitive. Thats for Your "idiotic" rampage use and rage drop when You need do dmg.

Your hypotetical use of SHs as kamikadze to blow them selfs out of guard range to get to order backline and try to use bad gas before they get insta killed is horrendous idea. Its like command WLs to punce out of guard range on destro healers to die instantly.

You know if slayer is lucky he can get 2xIDs ticking on 2target at the same time? Its 5s CD and random 4-8 seconds duration.

Your suggestion works great on paper,not in game.

[roadkillrobin]

@Haojin, I'm trying to gear my Mage for raid, so I can't really take all your points and break them down one-by-one. Not enough time.
Just some tips. Find some better Mara players who make the spec work, that understand that being alive and layering dots, stripping morale, is more important than the kill feed. Try to find some Sorcs that can play unguarded at 100foot. If you don't think you can? Don't continue to read.

Then find a couple of BOs that appreciate, Youz see me blok dat, Something you have completely missed is that BO build Morale like a **********. Pair that up M4. Try it. If you can't try it, get better BOs. Don't put so much focus around Chosens. @Razid1987

Bad gas works. Works very well. Get 2. Then as WB leader call it, tell 1 guy he is number 1. the other number 2. Call the gas at intervals. 65ft range means you can do some crazy **** with self punt to get into the back. I think Reesh used it in our WBs and a guy from Chlopi, can't remember his name.

Ban AOE punts. Fight some people work out who is guarding who. Focus the damage. Focus the knockbacks.

Use MDPS dok. Ask @Ade for help. Used him in WBs a couple of times, nice player.

Also, you forgot WP morale dump. Casually forgot the DPS zealot/dok from destro groups, oh and forgot to mention the AOE wounds debuffs from either side when building groups.

We allready know all these things. DPS Zealot doesn't have the same aplication as a dps RP since you don't get the crit buffs that order have acess to means it's a massive irrelaibillty. It's better to just run a Chosen for this purpse and get the static 25% healdebuff. (Especially since the crit from gear is pretty low atm)

I do dps test on all clases we run in our warband consistantly and the differencee between a Bad Gas Squigs and Morale Drain Marauder compared to Sorcs and even Choppas are so high that you can't run 4 of em. You start loosing way to much dps and become even more dependant on morale dumps.

It's not really true what you're saying either. Destro don't have more tools to play with. And moast of em are worse options then order counterparts aswell the only difference being the morale modifactions that Destro can do and that their spread out over more classes compared to Order who got pretty much all their stuff in 2 tanks, 3 dps and 2 healers. (3 if you count AM Morale pump)

After playing with and seeing your math. I think you are a very unreliable source of information.

Not knowing how to use the tools you have is not the same as not having them. Try harder.

So name 1 tool you think they have that are better that isn't based on morales?
I left your guild coz i was tired of hiding in keep funnels and farming pugs. And you did ask me to be a part of your prestiged Group 1 as a static member so that comment makes no sence. You and several other players from your guild were always bashing on me for stacking armor on my healers aswell. And what is evey healer doing now? Stacking armor.

[Razid1987]

http://imgur.com/gallery/SIovN
(Click the link I'm too dumb to embed.)

Sure.... Sure....

We bashed you because you're a whiny turd. A couple guys tried toughness (the good players who can detaunt) and they did well. Then the armour swap came later.

Example 1. Infernal wave.

Add the Tactic to reduce cooldown. Group comp of Chosen, Choppa, Sorc, Sorc, Dok, Dok.

Spammable 65ft range conal.

If you are playing sorcs like you are playing BWs. Well, you guys are beyond help.

Threads like this always bring the best out in people, indeed...

[roadkillrobin]

@Zanilos
I came across as "super whiney" in that mail for sure. Thanks for sharing it with the entire forum.
I had all but respect for you until about 10 min agao when you stated bashing on me.
So now we're at that...

We all know about IF spam with Neverending Agnoy mate. We have been using it for months now. And it doesn't work 90% of the time due to Shatter Limbs. If you get good use of it is coz eenemy is fleeing away from you or have no clue what their doin.

[Komode]

Bad gas works. Works very well. Get 2. Then as WB leader call it, tell 1 guy he is number 1. the other number 2. Call the gas at intervals. 65ft range means you can do some crazy **** with self punt to get into the back. I think Reesh used it in our WBs and a guy from Chlopi, can't remember his name.

For doing that trick you must gimp yourself as much as possible, i mean dmg, renown build etc., And it will be still crazy suicidal movements style for applying 1 skill.Its not worth it. Such SHs will die anyway like White Lions pouncing away from his guard like Vdova said, so what is the goal? Your wb will have a lack of dps everytime. Of course, sometimes its funny, but its not about competitive fight and composition zerg vs. zerg. You THINK that it works, but its not. You can think and tell about guys who did it, but it still in your head, your own movie, could you understand? Melee squig is class with medium aoe burst under 2nd morale per 1 minute, without it its just gimped slayer similar class with 3 aoe abilities with CD(cant spam), you can use only if you have ideal conditions. "Run away" sprint ability is able only outside of squig armor and IF your pet is active. So its really hard and random to use as melee squig in orvr conditions.
Most important, BTW, "Sticky Squigs" will throw your character away only if your targeted enemy you punt yourself away from doesnt have an immunity to CC and in 30ft near you. If you use it on frontline tanks, who use "Resolute Defence" very often OR you use it on melee classes who use snare CC immune ability very often before fight, your self punt dont work. So its really LUCK. You cant apologize on luck when you play competitivly.
And please stop this jelous behavior about Roadkillrobin, he will not return . Just joke.
With love, Komet, SH of Phalanx - main char.

[Yardy]

I'm not gonna talk about meta 6v6 that's just boring who has the biggest package in their pants kinda stuff. There are more characters to play than just the metas. I'm talking about open rvr and those 12 man or more scenarios.

I think and feel one main problem with rvr that I have come across both playing as a tank and healer on destro side, is that the gap to the enemy back line where the healers are, is harder to close up for destro players. Order healers tend to be free casting heals more often, thus outlasting and winning the destro attack. Destro tanks run in, order WL and SM, jump over and focus on destro healers. Also the WH is closing the gap past the destro frontline targeting healers, plus the range knock downs and the now extended range damage. Destro healers are always running back healing themselves more than anything else. Destro front line is then forced back to defend healers while order healers free cast and heal to victory.

Destro only has one class that can close this gap to get to backline healers and that is WE, the Marra pull rarely works due to disrupt, and disrupt is high on the high willpowered healers. Plus all the aoe snare and cc order do to hold our frontline back.

I might be talking with my head up my bum. But I strongly feel this is a viable issue. Just look at the population in T4 as of late. Order heavy and it's due to constant victory, as everyone wants to win more than they lose, so why not play the side that wins rvr more easily.

I know there was a time destro zerged and capped zones often... But our Zerg was always out performed from a lesser sized Zerg order managed to put together.

* I'm ready for the rude personal cut down attacks I will receive after this thinking out loud moment I'm having * please be nice

[Reesh]

Spoiler:

I see this posted everywhere,

"Destro's main advantage is morale gain, while order has better static gameplay"

I'm interested mostly in the latter part about order having better static stuff, which I assume is mostly connected to the kotbs? Anyone care to go into depth here about what order is overperforming on and what destro lacks to compensate for that? Obviously barring anything having to do with morales.

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/shttps://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=80
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

You can "understand" and "see" from Azarael's post how destro designed around fast morale gain - drain. Just check the numbers of morale pump from destro and order.

Let me show an example to you:

When the things come warband vs warband [ Which is main aspect of the game in my book at least 12 vs 12 ],

What is the main pressure of order warband ?

-M2 from BW [ 9,5 second with morale tactic ]

-Shatter Limbs from Slayer [ 20 second cooldown ] + Inevitable Doom [ Spamable with Whispering Winds ] + Rampage [ Every 5 seconds with Whispering Winds with Furious Mode ]

-No Escape [M3] from Knight with 1 AM morale pump [ 13,5 second ] + Crit buff [Defensive Support]

-Whispering Winds from SM [ 20 second cooldown, 5 sec decrease cooldowns] + [Defensive Support]

What is the counter from destruction:

You need:

-Marauders [Morale Drain] to counter M2 from BW. [ And trust me, you can't use many marauders in warband cause of dps output ] + M2 [ 24 seconds unbuffed, with Get Movin' + Ere we Goes Again from Shaman, using 2 tactics, 18 seconds ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Chop Fasta from Choppa [Countering Shatter Limbs only for 2 mins - if you fight agaist more than 2 slayers you're pretty ****.] [ Offensive Support ]

-DoK M2 [1 minute cooldown, 24 seconds to reach] [ Countering Shatter Limbs ] + AoE cleanse [ Already nerfed ]

-Bad Gas from SH [ 20 second cooldown, Countering dps pressure, actually not worth it agaist Whispering Winds, same cooldown ] [And trust me again, you can use 4 slayers in warband but you can't use 4 SH in warband cause of dps output ] and actually the only way to make your squig dps ok is M2 [ Unshakeable Focus, requires Morale boost tactic to use it effectively, 16 seconds with morale tactic ]

-Crimson Death from BG [ Crit Buff, Countering dps output, needs 2 hander= Squishy buff ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Cripling Strikes from Chosen [ Damage reducer, Countering crit buff, You need to stack with Crit, you dont have to use 2 hander for it but you have to use Oppressing Blows [Crit Buff, requires 2hander] + the abilities spammable abilities requires 2hander ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Blast Wave of Chosen [ Countering crit buff, AoE wounds debuff, 20 feet, 15 second cooldown]

-M2 of Sorc, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff, requires morale tactic, 24 seconds unbuffed, 9,5 seconds with morale tactic ]

-M2 of Zealot, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff's dps output, 11 second with morale tactic ]

Abstract for everyone:

Order classes are more stabilized with their mainstream classes, BW [ Morale + Dps ] - Knight [ Defensive + Support ] - SM [ Defensive + Support ] - Slayer [Utility + Dps ].

Order warbands can play like this:
4X [ 1 Knight + 1 SM + 1 BW + 1 Slayer + 2 WP ] [ of course it's just an example and need more utility like dps runepriest, engineer and morale pumper AM ]

If the things come for destro, you have to use a melee SH [ Utility + lack of dps] - Maraduer [ Utility + Lack of dps ] - Choppa [ lol Utility because of cooldown + Dps ] and Offensive tanks [2 hander BG + Chosen] so the only way to close the gap is: Destro morale tactics.

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro? Mistress of the Marsh debuffs initiative while Sticky Feetz debuffs Elemental resistance which is an undesirable effect. I see synergy with Magus rift which could prove useful. In any case not balanced, but I don't know how potent it is really.

Black Horror from Sorc - 80 init debuff
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Black Orc's Da Biggest Beilow with aoe abilities. [ random stat steal but it works]

Marauder Wave of Mutilation
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Witch Elves "Kiss of Agony" proc with OyK
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

premade warbands lmao

Let me clear something up for you, this game is balanced around the 6 man level. Not the WB level where you can do pretty much anything and you just dump damage morales when the WB leader says so and aside from that you just do whatever you want.

Delete the game.

Spoiler:

Let me debunk this little whine post of yours, that destro is so sad with it's tools and order so op.

M2 of BW combined with morale tactic. Against a coordinated warband it doesn't put enough pressure anymore. Stand together in a blob, and it's like nothing, as the AoE effect will spread out evenly. Order would need at least 6 BWs with coordinated morale drop to make it work against force of warband or more, and such numbers of BWs in one warband is completly and uterrly useless. Also, running morale tactic as a BW in a bomb wb is really bad.

Slayers spammable ID with whispering winds. Argument that it's powerfull in warband play is laughable. ID requires a target, that would mean that a slayer has to be INSIDE des wb. Also, it cannot have more then one application per player, so basically it's getting cleansed by doks without doing much. When it comes to consistent dps from slayer it's still a flurry spam, which is mirrored by choppas lotsa choppin.
Rampage every 5secs. Again, it requires whispering winds up, and again, totally useless. Dropping rage back to 0 just to get rampage effect during a wb fight is idiotic move, gimping your dmg when you need it to actually kill something. You drop rage when getting pressured, so basically when wb fight is most likely lost.

And the bad gas squig case, since couple of strong arguments mentioned shatter limbs. It's dps isn't bad when itemized properly and good itemization is a must. Also proper renown point speccing. If an SH goes out into wb by just respeccing then well, it's damage is going to be bad. And bad gas squigs are REQUIRED, so I'm literally laughing when I don't see them in organized warbands. Run two of them at least and you'll see the difference.
Positioning of using bad gas is key, one tool helps with it - using sticky squigz to knock yourself onto the healer line through any tank, mdps blob. Slayer doesn't have access to such trick and is inflicted upon body blocking.

That will be all for now.[/quote]

Spoiler:

If Slayer does not use "power throught" tactic(no drop rage) in warband composition,I would replace him for someone who is more competitive. Thats for Your "idiotic" rampage use and rage drop when You need do dmg.

Your hypotetical use of SHs as kamikadze to blow them selfs out of guard range to get to order backline and try to use bad gas before they get insta killed is horrendous idea. Its like command WLs to punce out of guard range on destro healers to die instantly.

You know if slayer is lucky he can get 2xIDs ticking on 2target at the same time? Its 5s CD and random 4-8 seconds duration.

Your suggestion works great on paper,not in game.[/quote]

Power through in a warband composition? I just deeply hope right now, that your choppas are suggested to run with wot rules, equivalent of it.
Slayer in a warband, not capable of dropping rage when their guard is punted away, when they're punted away, when getting focused, when flanking or getting flanked, when being targeted by siege weapons... Well, that seems logical and not suicidal at all.

Kamikaze move which cripples healers from the opposite wb when pushing? I don't think that sounds bad, especially when being told on voice com, so the resser is ready for you.

About 2xID on separate targets, I thought that you can read properly, about DoKs cleansing it in an instant. Also I thought that you already knew that it's dmg is pretty sucky at wb play.

[Haojin]

Sure.... Sure....

We bashed you because you're a whiny turd. A couple guys tried toughness (the good players who can detaunt) and they did well. Then the armour swap came later.

Example 1. Infernal wave.

Add the Tactic to reduce cooldown. Group comp of Chosen, Choppa, Sorc, Sorc, Dok, Dok.

Spammable 65ft range conal.

If you are playing sorcs like you are playing BWs. Well, you guys are beyond help.[/spoiler]

Normally i won't argue personally in a public thread but, Zanilos, weren't you guildmaster of King's Own ? The guild claiming itself the best order guild in T3 ? Seriously, i dissapointed about this immature and salty behavior. Anyways;

Are you playing the game atm ? Did you ever make a warband in T4 ? Did you ever played destro on T4 ?

Everyone in the server knows, "Chop Fasta + Infernal Wave + Neverending Agony" combo, the way you saying this like a big secret is really funny.

Let me debunk your gimp "1-3-2" composition. Actually, it's working agaist pugs and here is the truth "everything works agaist pugs". And you can boost it's range with "Lengthening Shadow" tactic like %33 fyi, that means 86 feet range. And if you want to hit 9 targets with IW, you need to be stay front of enemy 40 feet without tactic, 60 feet with tactic. Which range is very accesable with Charged + RD'ed slayer.

The only way to execute "IW + CF +NE" combo is Zealot's "AP Ritual" .
With 2 DoK [AP tactic doesn't let IW spam like 20 seconds]. So, for your composition should be like:

" 1 Chosen + 1 Choppa + 2 Sorc + 1 Zealot + 1 Dok "

What you gain with that composition ? High burst damage. [ Without Zealot, it's impossible.]
What you gonna lose with that composition ? 2 dead sorc in 3 seconds.

Letting 2 X Shatter Limbs + Dps Pressure on unguarded sorcs is such a bad idea on open field. If the things come funneling i'll give you a tip: Use the pug's as a meatshield and do the composition like " 1 Choppa + 3 Sorc + 1 Dok + 1 Zealot " i'm pretty sure it'll work. /sarcasm.

Just some tips. Find some better Mara players who make the spec work, that understand that being alive and layering dots, stripping morale, is more important than the kill feed. Try to find some Sorcs that can play unguarded at 100foot. If you don't think you can? Don't continue to read.

Here's the main problem that i mentioned above. You're losing dps output when using marauder in warband. [Thats why they buffed softly at last patch, thanks devs.] . And letting unguarded bomb sorcs in 100 feet(?) range, check the first section.

Then find a couple of BOs that appreciate, Youz see me blok dat, Something you have completely missed is that BO build Morale like a **********. Pair that up M4. Try it. If you can't try it, get better BOs. Don't put so much focus around Chosens. @Razid1987

Chosen and Black Orc morale gains are equal fyi.
BO M4 with morale tactic comes in 47 seconds.
With shaman morale pump [2 tactics], it's 36 seconds. With 2 Shaman and morale jewelry, it's 25 seconds.

Here's a tip for you: If you use a Knight with "morale jewelry" + "morale pumper AM"; he can reach that unique morale drain M4 "http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:" in 23 seconds, with 2 AM's it's 13 seconds.

13 < 25
23 < 36

a perfect M4 in good hands, countering early morales, drain all morale of 9 targets.

Here's what's happening in "warband vs warband" combat, BO and Chosens couldn't use their M4 cause they need to use their M2 for countering BW's M2.

Bad gas works. Works very well. Get 2. Then as WB leader call it, tell 1 guy he is number 1. the other number 2. Call the gas at intervals. 65ft range means you can do some crazy **** with self punt to get into the back. I think Reesh used it in our WBs and a guy from Chlopi, can't remember his name.

Bad gas works only if you fight agaist a warband without SM [lol]. And here's a light for you: If order warband got 4 SM's each party, your precious Bad Gas is nothing. Same cooldowns. I don't wanna talk about the dps output, because you're saying that self punter SH's should kamikaze.

[TenTonHammer]

Kamikaze move which cripples healers from the opposite wb when pushing? I don't think that sounds bad, especially when being told on voice com, so the resser is ready for you.

Unlike chess, people don’t feel like just sacrificing themselves “for the greater good”

Nor does an ability that’s only affective by kamikazing with it sound like a very well designed one

Lastly why are you not factoring in WW completely negating any effects of bad gas?