[Gear] State Stabilization

[porkstar]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

b) If relative balance between top gear sets in same for new tiers of gear like it was between previus tier of gear - then acquiring new set of gear is becoming more of a chore. Because you need to grind out gear after it's release only to came back to pre-patch situation vs other well geared players without added benefit of discovering and exploiting new balance.

I don't understand how normalizing gear sets in a "balance state" will cause stagnation. Take a look at some real hard-core science with this graph below. ]

Why then continue to release further armor sets with bigger numbers of them in first place?

It's a fair question. Honestly bigger numbers may or may not be necessary for a game depending on the axis of progression. War ended up being obviously vertical so the OP is trying to keep progression vertical without breaking the game and thus making the bottom end of the progression curve (Anni etc.) irrelevant.

I would prefer that gear ran at a very shallow vertical slope and procs bonuses etc were carefully selected to synergize with certain mastery trees. Others have mentioned that it could open up "niche" builds. OR, an idea partially borrowed from "rune sets" of GW2 would be to allot a certain amount of "points" to each set of gear and each owner of the set chose his/her own procs or bonuses by spending those points. Gear Specialization. Not sure if that's possible.

I play for the PvP and I actually prefer being at the top of the progression curve so that I can just come in to the game, fight a bit, then go make some dang pizza. With stabilized state, people who are progression/gear junkies can still put in a ton of play-time and still have an advantage by at most +2 tiers AND have several more RR. People like me that don't want to focus on grinding but just want to kill and socialize can still feasibly compete at -2 tiers and not have to grind the hell out of the game every time new gear is released. I feel like it's beneficial for everyone.

Spoiler:

The best example I can offer about insane power creep in PvP is Diablo2. The gear became so powerful that to actually compete in PvP, you had to buy entire gear sets from ebay collected by bots and dupers that ran 24/7. A single person playing normally could not possibly ever collect the necessary runes to make the required gear. It was such that a person unwilling to buy illicit items or run bot accounts, would stand absolutely no chance of winning a PvP fight. D2 wasn't a PvP focused game but it perfectly illustrated what unhinged vertical progression does to a game. One or two classes with a particular build would always sit at the top of the heap as the best for PvP so in the attempt to balance the game they had two choices, nerf the best builds into the ground OR buff the hell out of under performing builds. Then, to keep that sense of progression, they would release new Rune Word gear to enhance even more builds. It got to the point that literally every item in the game was worthless except for certain rune stones and the socketed items to put the runes in. An entire library of unique, rare and magic gear was totally irrelevant and so was actual game play for the purposes of progression. My favorite was Smite Pally btw =D

[Miszczu5647]

I would prefer that gear ran at a very shallow vertical slope and procs bonuses etc were carefully selected to synergize with certain mastery trees. Others have mentioned that it could open up "niche" builds. OR, an idea partially borrowed from "rune sets" of GW2 would be to allot a certain amount of "points" to each set of gear and each owner of the set chose his/her own procs or bonuses by spending those points. Gear Specialization. Not sure if that's possible.

From the beginning of this thread GW2 solution was I my head. Every time someone mention "customization". If it would by possible...
Every set would have his base stats and points to spend. Differences in base stats should by minimal. Higher sets would have higher points pool to spend. If you want incorporate horizontal progression tie sets with different play style (different path) and make base stats equal.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

@blaqwar secondary eff of wep skill, and willpower are no where near to buy directly that secondary eff with renown stuff

1 renown point give you 4 pt in wep skill etc and very small chance to parry which is also totally ignored. You use 1 point in parry you get a 3% and is not bypassable as much you get from stats. The ignore is very low (due to itiems most part requiring that ignore)while str allow you to bypass until 100% of enemy parry etc for all other primary stat, if at least you could preserve a bit of that % from wep skill/willp then the power creep would also be lower and ttk also higer.

wp skill is useless:
mdps vs mdps
mdps vs tank
tank vs tank

work only
melee vs tank

This apply to all not fixed armor in game which have also willpower for BW; also cloth healers balance would had been easier if willpower secondary eff would had work correctly against bw/sorc (which is why they have a op meccanic)
engie exemple is wrong ; other rdps if not wep skill should have had willpower(magus/ sorc/bw). Same results for different attack defense.

I really don't understand what this post is about - Penril

[Bozzax]

Some thoughts

Assuming all needs to grind new gear sets or decay. Won't that mean you play not to progress but to stay the same?

If this also means your toon decays in tiers every time you take break from ROR won't it create a barrier from players returning? Starting over every time.

Will it keep casuals/altoholics forever in a -2 pit as they never can reach end game. Will they even bother playing if they cant reach it?

How will latecommers be motivated to grind through tha absolute wall of gear at -2 tiering that eventually builds up? Would skip mechanics be added to reduce the effort and if so arent we back with some of the problems listed in op.

Will the diff -1 be 50% of -2?

Gear progression was the very core of WAR wouldn't this change the very soul of the game. Not saying changes aren't needed but this means ROR is another game with a WAR skin. Is it worh potentially loosing the playerbase that don't adapt?

Finetuning how much -2 translates will be extremly influential on the success of relative tiering. To much and latecommers and returners will whine. To little and the stay the same grind won't be worth it i think.

[Bozzax]

Regarding TF2 fans wouldn't that just make ROR be another WOH (which had like 10 active players)?

[Penril]

Next one to suggest a way to give us "progression" or anything related is getting a warning. STICK to OP's issue. If you don't understand what this thread is about, DON'T post here.

[blaqwar]

@Tesq
Ah I see, I misunderstood you then, you were talking about the secondary effect of weapon skill not about weapon skill as a secondary stat. Yes, the parry, dodge and disrupt bonuses from stats are not that useful.

@Bozzax:

How is that different from the normal vertical progression system? Isn't it even worse with alts, people taking breaks and latecomers? Cause instead of simply having +2 sets of gear of an advantage to fight over (for however long it takes you to get those set) you have to fight with 3 or 4 sets of difference (and the amount of time is likely the same). Or are you suggesting that neither of those should be implemented/kept in the game (for clarification; AoR's system and the proposed system for RoR)?

My best guess to your question of what happens with RoR if this is implemented is that in the best case scenario we get a base for balancing and the changes don't result in that big of a difference from AoR, the ones feeling the change are the people wearing top sets and the people wearing the bottom sets at the time. The bottom part of the playerbase would definitely be much better off but since the game is old now I'm not sure it would be enough, the typical casual (and hardcore) gamer has changed. Nobody can say for certain if players would be willing to play a large-scale PvP game with a gear disadvantage at all.

Spoiler:

It seems to me that the current gaming trends are casual players clamoring for easier progression while not understanding that something like that essentially ruins the whole system.

Meanwhile the top part of the players would be the ones actively shaping the game and participating in testing/balancing. If the balance changes and the customization/horizontal progression is implemented successfuly without imbalances but with clear viabilities then I can see the game being popular with hardcore gamers. I don't know to what extent that is possible.

Worst case scenario the bottom end wants even less of a difference or an easier access to top sets (which is impossible since it defeats the point of having the vertical progression in the first place), but that would have happened either way in WAR so I guess that's not really an issue I could point out as relevant.

And in the worst case the top end feels like the new sets don't bring enough variation and fresh gameplay to be worth farming for. In which case I can't see the gameplay (even if balanced) holding hardcore gamers for that long, there's just not that much depth in there. And with all due respect to the dev team I don't think they can bring that to the game, it would need to be remade from the ground up (in my opinion).

Spoiler:

As for WoH, it had potential, imagine a Warhammer style DotA2 with a few unique twists.

@Penril: Since Bozzax's post didn't get moderate I assume it's within the confines of this discussion? As such I hope my reply conforms as well. I went back and spoilered some stuff.

[Penril]

Correct, he talks of other things besides progression, like the impact a -2 would have on casual players. That is relevant to this discussion.

[Bozzax]

For me it looks like op is a "stick' proposal grind or be inferior (a race where the finishing line moves indefinitly). If you are slow you'll never make the finishing line. That can be to IRL things or whatever. Maybe they make the effort small just make it reasonable but then hc players have 0 progression (they finish more or less directly after a change). The most troublesome part though I think will be when the finish line have moved so far off no one bothers to start the race. I believe endless gear progression fails here.

WAR with broken curves an all had a 'carrot' thing. Grind and get better grind more and get an advantage. Whatever pace you take you finish. You cant continue to add sets forever. The effort itself stays constant meaning latecomers grind the same to reach the goal. Ppl that come back can pick up and hc will have 0 gear progression once they hit end gear.

So if neither cant give endless gear progression then all we really are doing with relative tiering is controlling the gear gap?

Regarding your questions no I don't think they are equal for casuals, pausers, altoholics, only for hc that finish the race regardless how AZ rig it. They rech end of gear progression regardless.

[sotora]

People like me that don't want to focus on grinding but just want to kill and socialize can still feasibly compete at -2 tiers and not have to grind the hell out of the game every time new gear is released. I feel like it's beneficial for everyone.

Per developers statement - ROR won't have big power creep like AOR used to either way, so you wont have to regrind anyway if you're ok with staying behind in gear a bit which you will in both systems if you don't "grind the hell out of the game every time new gear is released".

I mean if balance is gonna stay the same with new armor then why release new armor at all? Just leave the old one - maybe release side-grade armor with diffrent stat distibution but same stat pool. It will be even better for casual players than -2 tier system - even less grinding.


If balance via gear is meant to remain the same with each new set of armor - then why don't stop inflating those stats with new tiers of armor in first place? It will bring state stabilization as well and no grinding as added benefit. - even more attractive for those that don't like grinding new sets. New looks can still be added via cosmetic only sets/items. Win/win.