Buffing the Shadow Warrior/What change would you like to see?

[Ugle]

AoE detaunt in assault stance in addition to slightly reduced ap cost would be a good start.

Doing too many changes in one go will probably break the class either way (op/up)

IMO assault SW is pretty fine as it is, just needs some minor tweaks. What makes assault mode dangerous is lack of AoE detaunt first and foremost.

Dotting up and weakening the target up front and finishing them off in assault mode should be enough.

[davispeed]

LOL ... SW DONT NEED ANY BUFF.... Closed this threat already

[Elftwin95]

With the utmost respect meant,it is not even allowed to simply talk about it?

[Dabbart]

Honestly? Who the hell knows. Discussing potential changes is apparently supposed to be in the balance forums(where most threads don't get that chance, and also been stated the place will be closed) but not all of the discussions get locked out of there... So yea.

Who knows? But end of the day, those shouting SW need no buff(and I even said they are more than strong enough as it is) pertains to ranged SW. I understand the want to increase the melee aspect of the SW, and it has been stated numerous times in this thread, that any increase to their melee potential should be strictly limited so as to not make their ranged power, or general play-ability entirely OP.

[Penril]

You can discuss what buffs a certain class needs. The moment you agree on something, I lock the thread and wait for the proposal in the balance forum.

I did mention a few days ago that we would be accepting SW proposals again (I was declining them since there was a SW .ab ex being considered, but nothing has been done yet so... yeah).

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

Well... Without attempting to sound like a ****, or argumentative... Maybe you can say that in the threads you lock Penril? Cause saying, "this looks like something that should be in the balance discussion forums, Locking" doesn't mention that we actually get to discuss it, until we have an "agreement", and in my mind, didn't mean that at all. It meant if you want to discuss this type of thing, type up a proposal. Which may or may not get declined for some reason that the creator is entirely unaware of, before it's merits are checked. Also, is there honestly any reason to spend to time on them anymore after Aza's statement?

[Penril]

Spoiler:

Well... Without attempting to sound like a ****, or argumentative... Maybe you can say that in the threads you lock Penril? Cause saying, "this looks like something that should be in the balance discussion forums, Locking" doesn't mention that we actually get to discuss it, until we have an "agreement", and in my mind, didn't mean that at all. It meant if you want to discuss this type of thing, type up a proposal. Which may or may not get declined for some reason that the creator is entirely unaware of, before it's merits are checked. Also, is there honestly any reason to spend to time on them anymore after Aza's statement?

There is a difference between these 2 threads:

a) Give SWs a AoE detaunt and a toughness buff when in Assault stance, and
b) What do you guys think SWs need?

The first one is locked immediately since OP is already making a proposal and, therefore, it belongs in the proposal forum The second one is OP asking the community what they think SWs need and, when you guys agree on something, someone can make the proposal. We had something similar for BG some weeks ago iirc.

As for Aza's statement... well, the Balance forums are still open, so the rules are still the same.

[Mystriss]

Whirling pin self punt was the most rediculious thing to give us SW frankly, they never should have done that, it made zero sense in lore, nor in game play needs (basically they caved to crying scout stance primaries who didn't dance or move around.) If I had been less intrigued by melee combat (and a good fight) I would/could have been near untouchable; some of our skirmish SW in fact were. As an assaulter looking for a rush I didn't use it "properly," but even with my primary melee play-style it made it way to easy to defeat a single combatant... way to easy.

If you are playing a melee SW, you lack any escape tools. The movement a melee train is on a WE/WH, they can self punt; a DPS DOK/WP can aoe punt; a Choppa/SL/WL/Mara can charge away. A melee sw? Disarm/KD (potentially wasting CC) and hope for the best. Whirling Pin is a welcome addition to melee SW/SH.

Defeating a single combatant (solo roaming/1v1) has no bearing on balancing a class around group play.

SW's already had a punt... It's been like 6+ years since I messed with builds so I don't recall the name but it's a Moral 1. (In my years of playing SW I cannot recall ever even using that punt personally, but I know my scouts and skirmishers used it often. I just always took Concealment because magic was my weakness; sacrificed for melee play-ability as far back as RR50ish.)

As far as whirling pin in assault I only really used the self punt for positioning - like if a WE got on my healer while I was in the front lines I could get back to them quicker to drop my mdps on them, or to sling-shot over the melee line to get into the squishies. I did occasionally use it as a defense for a marauder pull if I was already wounded, just so I didn't have to burn my moral to avoid it until a friendly healer had time to offer a HOT or heal pots came off CD. To be fair though, I typically ran in with the order melee train as front lines dps assist (even in Skirmish spec, though with the recent AOE changes on RoR th latter might not be advisable.) my squishy Destro buddies didn't much like my sword in their faces and rather quickly learned to punt me away, so my biggest hurdle was actually the opposite of "escape" - I struggled to stay /in/ melee heh

The point of my bringing up skirmisher/scouters and self punt was not that the class should be balanced on solo play (more on that later,) but rather that no matter how you shake it, a good skirmisher with self punt can easily be untouchable - and worse (perhaps,) in skirmish, and to a lesser degree scout, they have the deeps to wreck their opponent at self-punted range. It doesn't work to compare self-punt on other melee classes because they can't waste someone at range like a SW can. (Although I've been hit by some pretty nasty axes/knives in my days heh)

Not sure anyone proposed bringing back the minimal range thing. I agree with you on that.

Yeah, AnarcyPark had suggested min range return.

Note: the X second CD (30/60/whatever) would ONLY pertain to those SWs who had invested in the tactic. Given that, as per what I proposed, said tactic would be moved really high up in the Assault tree and, thus, only really be taken by dedicated melee SWs, it would have no bearing on Skirmish/Scout and the CD would remain the same for them. In retrospect, the ranged damage is already gimped somewhat while in Assault stance (as you said), but I just thought that if we are to make the melee SW viable in melee range, then at the very least it ought to have a CD on its stance-swapping potential (ONLY those Assault SWs who have the tactic)

The idea of the SW being a jack of all trades is nice and all, but does't really translate well into competitive group play. Noone is saying that the SW shouldn't be utilising their stance-dance mechanic (same with Marauder), but if Assault SW is to be made viable (as it stands now, it is gimmicky and only useful for M2+Whispering Winds bouts/solo killing - lacks survivability, too, as you said, especially with the ws/str tactic), the other specs must not benefit.

Gotcha. I guess I'm just not sure how beneficial parry would be, its possible that combining such a tactic with No Respite giving +20% parry and +10% crit chance on successful parry would offset the dps loss enough (I cannot remember if NR stacked) - if one was willing to burn two tactics on it anyway. I don't think I would be willing to do it, but as I noted, I've not had time to play seriously on RoR yet so its entirely possible I'm wrong. I do recall that one of my favorite WEs had a parry spec that was ridiculously OP heh

On the last bit there though, I completely disagree that SW /needs/ to "translate to competitive group play" or that "solo play has no bearing." To put it a bit bluntly, I didn't start playing Sexy Boots to be some elitist groups dps slave, if I was interested in that group role I'd have played my BW or Slayer. I play SW because I loved the classes utility and, in a lot of ways, because of it's soloing pliability. Personally, I'll never be playing consistently in a premade on /any/ class, that was the beauty and addiction of the SW for me - I didn't /need/ a group, I played my SW 99% solo, and I was "useful" and "viable" enough to merit unsolicited heals, shields, and guard from pretty much everyone around. Order didn't name us "The Renown Train" for no reason heh

I am a bit... hostile to the idea that "only group play matters." I will always speak adamantly for the "cause" that solo and casual players are just as important to a server's community and health as "competitive groups" are, and therefore the needs/wishes of solo players and casual's should indeed be considered when looking at game play and class changes. If elitist group play is the direction that RoR is headed, then my opinion on SW changes can be disregarded because I flat out won't play on the server - seriously bad experiences on my first server... as in I'd rather trap shoot my $10,000 computer than ever play on an elitist guild server again >.<


I think ultimately SW changes boil down to the choice of either tailoring the SW class to the popularity of a few cookie-cutter play style builds VS tailoring toward the flexibility of the classes ability to work in multiple play styles at the same time. SW is the only class in the game that you can build entirely around a unique and individualized play style bridging range and melee. I think it would be a real shame to lose that trying to force SW's into a group-centric square DPS hole. [Because seriously, that's what so-called "competitive" groups really care about; the ability to easily FF through enemy heals and mow down other groups.] ...uhm can you hear my disdain for elitist groups who think they are hot chit players heh Sorry, Monolith has forever soured me on elitists.

Thank you Mystriss for showing me that information, I will have to try out your stance theory, what keybinds do you use? What is L2strife by the way?

Strafe is basically running sideways, its all about movement flow and LOS/cone of fire. Instead of using the standard turn left (a) and turn right (d) use strafe left (believe the default keybind is q) and strafe right (believe it's default is e) instead; it changes everything about shooting on the run.

Compare the movement fluidity in the following short bits of fights; this bit: https://youtu.be/6eQHFmtvtfI?t=1m39s vs this bit: https://youtu.be/rK7wSzbJHJ8?t=39s

See how the first video required me to "flip" around to fire off a shot while running away? You'll also see me getting "Cone of Fire" errors a lot back then. In the second video bit I'm using "strafe" right/left instead. See how I can shoot that black orc while running away from him? It makes a huge difference on the field if you use any shoot on the run abilities (or use positional attacks ala assault) and its oft overlooked by players, especially SWs who typically start out in Scout "turret mode" and/or players who use mouse movement (which quite frankly is no good for a SW.) Strafe also lets you shoot an enemy that's running parallel to you as in this bit: https://youtu.be/62vZ2h-hG3g?t=35s This last one is actually a hybrid movement, I use mouse move for forward/back and the keyboard for strafe right/left, I find it works well to retain the camera panning feature and I've still got keyboard forward/back if I need to use the clicker for targeting (or getting those stupid loot windows off the screen heh)


As far as my stance swapping setup, I have a Corsair K95-RGB so I'm betting my key binds wouldn't work for you heh


If you're only dual dancing then you could leave the unused stance off your action bar to make it easier (only need one keybind then.) If you're trip dancing though you'll have to remember the stance bindings. My suggestion/guideline would be that Assault is the more important one to hit in an emergency so always make that your easier to hit binding. Pair the binds best you can so you don't have to remember so much, to example mine was:

In Scout stance G16=Assault/G17=Skirmish.
In Skirmish Stance G16=Assault/G17=Scout.
In Assault G16=Skirmish/G17=Scout.

Most of the time Assault is G16, and Scout is G17. Skirmish was my "off spec" when I had first set it up, aka the stance that I went into the least, so I had made that my "moving" stance keybind. It also worked out well that in assault stance I had skirmish on the easier to hit button since that's the more mobile stance - its all kinds of bad accidentally going into squishy scout stance when you're ditching melee; although I did get decent at mobile Scout because of fumbles like that heh

It's funny, but once you get the stance binds in your head it apparently hangs out there forever, just like the swap of abilities seem to. I'm not even positive I have my key binds set up on my RoR SW, certainly I haven't played it in many months, but just putting my hand over my g-keys I can tell you that G4 is Acid Arrow. G6 is Exploit Weakness/Fell the Weak, ~ is Take Down/Throat Shot, G15 is Spiral. G18 is Eagle Eye. G10 is Grim Slash. G12 is Broadhead etc... It's like riding a bike!

[peterthepan3]

On the last bit there though, I completely disagree that SW /needs/ to "translate to competitive group play" or that "solo play has no bearing." To put it a bit bluntly, I didn't start playing Sexy Boots to be some elitist groups dps slave, if I was interested in that group role I'd have played my BW or Slayer. I play SW because I loved the classes utility and, in a lot of ways, because of it's soloing pliability. Personally, I'll never be playing consistently in a premade on /any/ class, that was the beauty and addiction of the SW for me - I didn't /need/ a group, I played my SW 99% solo, and I was "useful" and "viable" enough to merit unsolicited heals, shields, and guard from pretty much everyone around. Order didn't name us "The Renown Train" for no reason heh

I am a bit... hostile to the idea that "only group play matters." I will always speak adamantly for the "cause" that solo and casual players are just as important to a server's community and health as "competitive groups" are, and therefore the needs/wishes of solo players and casual's should indeed be considered when looking at game play and class changes. If elitist group play is the direction that RoR is headed, then my opinion on SW changes can be disregarded because I flat out won't play on the server - seriously bad experiences on my first server... as in I'd rather trap shoot my $10,000 computer than ever play on an elitist guild server again >.<

That's cool, and I didn't mean for it to come across as if I were saying that only group play matters, and any solo issues ought to be ignored. I meant that an Assault SW ought to be as viable as the other 2 specs for fulfilling the role of DPS, in competent play when played by competent players. Balancing a class ought to be done around the assumption that player X is playing class Y as good as class Y can possibly be played, so as to ascertain a spec/class's potential and whether or not finetuning is needed. As it stands now, Assault is good for solo (always has been) but has no spot in group play.

[Elftwin95]

Thank you Mystriss for your keybind info...unfortunatly I do not have such an impressive keyboard..I used the A W and S key for my dancing, but now I try to get used to have them on my + and ´ keys