[AM/Sham] AP Drain

[roadkillrobin]

Zeal and RP can spam cleanse ap drains
Ap potions = 20 sec "immunity"
Disrupt
Cleansing winds

(SWs have it even easier with M1 self cleanse)

Lets see some real proof of ap-drains being the new 6v6 meta

What happens when RP/Zea is the target tho? Who's gonna cleanse it? And AP potions are instant with much longer CD vs APoT. It would work against a instant drain. Not so much against this version as you be out of AP in just a couple seconds again.

[Acidic]

Hi
I can not say I read all entries here but a lot of them. One thing that I noticed is that the issue seems to be AP drain taking a player out of play. This suggest the solution should based on treating the AP drain as a CC type ability. That is immunity after one for a xx seconds and probably not stacking.
In my opinion this would keep the shammy AP gain where it is but they have to frefresh the AP dot on different targets and no single player is neutralized for long periods. Can not say how hard this would be to implement as it would be a new CC type pice of code which could be in a few places.

[Bozzax]

Zeal and RP can spam cleanse ap drains
Ap potions = 20 sec "immunity"
Disrupt
Cleansing winds

(SWs have it even easier with M1 self cleanse)

Lets see some real proof of ap-drains being the new 6v6 meta

What happens when RP/Zea is the target tho? Who's gonna cleanse it? And AP potions are instant with much longer CD vs APoT. It would work against a instant drain. Not so much against this version as you be out of AP in just a couple seconds again.

Use your CW and lol you should have it anyway and learn to position (or spam clns yourself as the cover will be none existant)

Drains should tick every 3s tho

[roadkillrobin]

Well if you spam cleanse yourself then no healing is goin out. And CW shouldn't be mandatory, Imo it shouldn't even exist.

3sec ticks would solve moast of the issues for the reciver but reverse the issue to being a skill not worth using anymore. Pretty clear it needs a redesign.

[Bozzax]

AP-drains being used on live proves you are incorrect

[Cimba]

Funny thread. Going back to

Moving forward:
- Provide evidence there are alternaive solutions, not already posted, to restoring group AP
- Alternative solutions that reduce its strength but maintain situational effectiveness
- Remember, only prove and disprove.

The only class (on order) I can think of that can probably feed sufficient AP to sustain players through shaman AP drains is the IB. Using Watch An' Learn in combination with aoe skills. Unfortunately is has only an uptime of 50%.

As I see it there are currently no easy counters to the am/shaman ap drain. That doesn't mean there aren't any. It has been pointed out that there are varity of measures you can take. However they all require significant investments (tactic slots, skill points, gear).
Isn't that the definition of unbalance? You need to go to great lengths to counter something that costs essentially nothing.

IMO reduce the ap drain by 50% or 66% (option 2 of the op). It would still be one, if not the, most potent core ability ap drain (outside of morales).

[footpatrol2]

Use 2 IB's as your tanks.

The group I produced earlier for destro was a ap feed chaos group, there is a lot more going on in it but that is derailing.
You can almost do the identical thing with dwarves. Ap feed groups are very strong because it makes all members overperform then what your used to seeing. If they get drained then it balances itself out.

[Druin]

I really don't see what a lot of these posts add to the discussion.

[footpatrol2]

counter play

@cimba
No it is not unbalanced. I agree with option 1. The ap drains being per sec is problematic it is too consistent/reliable. Most of these feeds are not feeding per sec like the am/shaman drain. They come in bursts which allows you to potentially sneak in a ability use before the drain kicks in as stated earlier. The other options are too dramatic, in my opinion.

You can build Ap feed groups even if your not getting drained. If your not getting drained and you have a strong ap feed group then abilities that your not accustomed to using become available to use. Abilities that cost too much ap to spam without a ap feed group become spammable in a ap feed group. The instant cleansing tactic that Z's/RP have that increases your ap cost on cleanse can be spammed more then in a non ap feed group. You got (baseline ap regen) + (strong ap feed) = You can pump out more healing and pump out more damage overall. With drain's you go back to normal and you can cleanse those drains also to regain your dominance in ap feeding.

I'm only talking about ap feed groups because of this.

Moving forward:
- Provide evidence there are alternaive solutions, not already posted, to restoring group AP
- Alternative solutions that reduce its strength but maintain situational effectiveness
- Remember, only prove and disprove.

Gerv.

I think ap feed groups fit this criteria? right?

[Cimba]

Maybe we should look at the data. Lets define the drain rate of an ability as AP drained/cooldown then the AM/SA AP drain has a value of 18 AP/sec. Compare this to other core abilities

• CH: 3 AP/sec (Withering Blow)
• BW: 2,5 AP/sec (Burning Iron)
• BW/SO: 6 AP/sec (Slow Boil/Vision of Torment)
• BG: 3 AP/sec (Chrushing Anger)

There are probably more but these a the ones I remember off the top of my head. Things like Kiss of Betrayal are hard to put into numbers. Compared to other core abilities the AM/SA drain is 3-6 times more potent. Lets take a look at non-core abilities/tactics.

• BO/SM: 5 AP/sec (Arm Breaka)
• DOK: 10 AP/sec (Horrifying Offering, tactic)
• MA: 13 AP/sec (Exhaustives Strikes, tactic)
• MA: 6 AP/sec (Draining Swipe, base AP regen is 25 --> 25/2 = 12,5 --> 50% uptime 6,25 AP/sec)
• CH/KOTBS: 4 AP/sec (AOE, Dreadful Terror)

Even though this list is also not exhaustive one can already see that there are quite a few abilities that are far less potent in terms of AP drain even though they require skill points and/or tactics slots. For me this a clear indication that not only the amount of AP drained by the AM/SA is a problem. But also that the AP drain is poorly balanced in respect to similar abilities.