[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

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Tifereth
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#101 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:23 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:IMO interesting approach would be to make it so that WL can't get both POUNCE and Armour Debuff at same
That's probably where the real balance discussion will head eventually when the time comes, ie reshuffeling skilltrees etc.
Still stands to reason why the WL in your eyes should not have access to his only decent debuff though.

From the holy trinity of debuffs, the incoming heal debuff, the wounds debuff and the armour debuff, the WL has in total
one, namely said armour debuff.

Mara has all three in the same tree, admittedly one that eats up a tactic slot. Why are people so hung up on the WL
again? :lol:
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Nefarian78
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#102 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:33 pm

Tifereth wrote:
Nefarian78 wrote:Currently WLs have the best armor debuff in game
Stellar fact free arguments.

How is WL armour debuff different from the Mara armour debuff? Top DPS is also very debatable, certainly not the
best sustained DPS by a long shot. Safest? Because he can jump out of danger if there is an enemy close and in a safe
zone, but only after your cooldown? Or safest as in you can swoop in for an easy killsteal in an Orvr pug situations? And how
is a pet an advantage when it can be killed easily to cripple your DPS? There's plenty of videos on this forum that shows
you how WLs can be shut down.

By WL armor debuff i meant both Maras and WLs. thought that was clear already. Maras at least can be kited tho, unlike WLs.
They might not have the best dps in the game, but between Mdps? they have the highest damage both sustained and burst with Maras.

By safest i mean that they don't have an enrage mechanic like Slayers or Choppas, They also don't have any skill like Hurtin Time/Reckless Gambit to use, and they also have the occasional pounce escape, as you said

You also seem to think WLs pets are easy to kill, which they are not at all. they have a good HP pool, they aren't really that squishy. You can also heal your pet and use Feline Grace to break roots and snares on him and make him immune for 10s.
Having a pet also means that if you manage to punt away the WL the pet will stll be able to attack you, which makes shutting down WL harder. And in the case your pet dies it's not like your dmg completely vanishes as WLs are a threat by themselves too.
Wl pets can also be summoned quicker and with less CD compared to squigs too.
They done stole my character's names. Can't have **** in RoR.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#103 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:51 pm

The M1 ranged root on a WL that Mara also has access to? That one?
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Tifereth
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#104 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:21 pm

Spoiler:
Nefarian78 wrote: By WL armor debuff i meant both Maras and WLs. thought that was clear already. Maras at least can be kited tho, unlike WLs.
They might not have the best dps in the game, but between Mdps? they have the highest damage both sustained and burst with Maras.

By safest i mean that they don't have an enrage mechanic like Slayers or Choppas, They also don't have any skill like Hurtin Time/Reckless Gambit to use, and they also have the occasional pounce escape, as you said

You also seem to think WLs pets are easy to kill, which they are not at all. they have a good HP pool, they aren't really that squishy. You can also heal your pet and use Feline Grace to break roots and snares on him and make him immune for 10s.
Having a pet also means that if you manage to punt away the WL the pet will stll be able to attack you, which makes shutting down WL harder. And in the case your pet dies it's not like your dmg completely vanishes as WLs are a threat by themselves too.
Wl pets can also be summoned quicker and with less CD compared to squigs too.
Ceding the point that seeing it that way it is indeed the best armour debuff, and assuming they are both pretty swell damage
wise, we are left with:

WL: Armour debuff, pounce to attack/save yourself, with said drawback of needing a target, different pet skills depending on your stance, less squishy than a slayer/WH
Mara: Wounds debuff, heal debuff, same armour debuff, monstro stance dance to harden up for focus fire, less squishy than a choppa/WE

We are still talking group play, yes? Since 1v1s don't matter. So a punted WL's pet won't kill you, unless your healers hate you.
Mid air pounce should be fixed by now, too. It's a nice little source of sustained DPS while the WL is gone, until you make it prio to
focus the pet with your group DPS and it indeed dies pretty quickly. Shares the downside with squig pets. More a nuisance than anything, unless you get solo ganked on a none healer class.
Still not seeing the terrifying deadlyness since the pet alone can easily be outhealed. Pet pathing is certainly better
than on live, but it's still fiddly and more often than not a downside proportional to the level of play you're in.

Should the solution to a high risk offensive play like a pounce into enemy lines really be to take the bite out of his attack power by stripping off the armour rip, or maybe rather, if a nerf had to be applied, in making the WL squishier? To me it should be the latter. Less attack and more resiliance for the sustain frontliners, higher attack and less resiliance for risky fighters.

Squigs need some love eventually, too, I give you that. Super long cooldowns are awful. There is the "I got lots" tactic, however. At least you could summon something else while waiting. As WL you could bridge the time by using up a tactic slot and would still be butt naked for a few seconds, or get rid of the pet and the cc with Loner. Both could be better, really.

Nobody is denying that this game's balance needs some fine tuning. Still not seeing a very clear reason to hit the WL with
a nerfhammer explicitly. Both factions need better inner faction balance. Mara having the holy trinity is just bad not for order, but destro itself. Also: No matter which class you stick that armour rip to, they'll always deal more damage since armour is such a huge deal in this game. Just imagine a slayer with an armour debuff instead. :P Some order melee DPS has to have it. Wouldn't stick it onto WH/WE since their mechanic already is to ignore a big chunk of armour.
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freshour
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#105 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:45 pm

@Tifereth - I vote that DOK and WP be given the Armor Debuff of the Mara's and WL's. I think everyone else will agree.

/s /s /s /s /s /s

But really, think about it :D

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Tifereth
Posts: 134

Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#106 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:45 pm

Spoiler:
freshour wrote:@Tifereth - I vote that DOK and WP be given the Armor Debuff of the Mara's and WL's. I think everyone else will agree.

/s /s /s /s /s /s

But really, think about it :D
Turn ALL classes into DoKs, perfect balance achieved. Good job, guys, we can go home now 8-)

Seriously though, the comment of Robin right at the first page summed it up pretty well, already. There's more to it than just
"here are two mirror classes, discuss!". Too many factors, from the own faction balance between it's classes, to the balance in
corrolation to the other faction's classes and how they all synergise with and against each other.

I'd rather use my time on the actual balance discussions once they happen, so I'll leave it at that.
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theoddone
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#107 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:57 pm

Just to add to this already fine discussion. What about on demand CC?
-Theo

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Darosh
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#108 » Sun May 28, 2017 12:46 am

One simple to solution to about 95% unjustified complaints and ridicoulus proposals:

Disable rr/xp gain for people that snowflake around in the lakes.
Grant 16,67% rr/xp gain per member of a group and have it scale with population, just like AAO.
Warbands with atleast one full group have access to full rr/xp for all groups.
Enable normal rr/xp gain for people with rr60+, those will most likely unterstand the basics of the game and won't go around complaining about things that can be dealt with via proper CC/assist/guardswaps, group composition and the most basic of communication; those will not complain about their 1v1/1vX/pug encounters against class xyz.

Most complaints and most of the frustration will be vented in, and filtered by voice coms, /p and /wb chat - or will just increase the amount of spam in /ad, /3, /tx chats, but who cares about that either way, its a mess already.

Not being able to yield the perfect-fotm-trololol 6man is no excuse* for making no effort whatsoever to find a group and instead going around getting **** on 24/7 just to vent your frustrations on the forums in form of proposals that completly disregard the nature of the game and the tools at your disposal.

You aren't meant to effortlessly win**, moreso every inch of this game resolves around negating your own classes weakness by the means of composition - by synergy between the members of a group; you are not a swiss knife.
Play in a duo, trio and otherwise - work your way towards a 6man, as more often you group as more people you get to know, and chances are some will be interested in a fix 6man.
As time goes by you'll get to know each other and work out specs and such ~ you'll see your group as a whole improve.

Things you consider absolutely broken out of your current perspective will become laughable - and they will become even more laughable if they are tampered with based on a pug perspective. Moreso, you'd be surprised how incredible "broken" certain classes can become if one does build a group appropriately - given that barely anyone complains about certain compositions but rather wastes time complaining about sole classes, its fair to say no one involved (and emotionally invested) in these circlejerks has actually played the game, checked the toolsets, did some basic theorycrafting/testing or invested remotely enough time otherwise to have a say as it comes to balance. Subjective perception derived from piss poor play doesn't beat math, dedication or coordiantion.

There are games around that offer 1v1/snowflake experience, GW2 comes to mind as just one example.

*If you happen to play during a time in which no one is online: deal with it; thats out of anyones reach and no amount of tampering with the classes will help you. If you get roflstomped by WLs/Maras, or just about any class, over and over try to pester the 2-3 derps online to join up or log off and play a game with a better population during your timeslots.

**Killing snowflakes in the lakes or pugs in scenarios has nothing in common, or is in any way related to "winning" - it is to be considered the nature of things. So don't even bother with "but a WL/Mara/Sorc/whatever killed be within 2gcds! Its broken!11!!!", futhermore: get used to dying, its an integral part of the game.

TLDR:

Before you even bother about overhauling classes, think about what other systems in place would have to be completely overhauled to not mess with the integrity of the game:
Buffs/Debuffs (Stacking), Morales (Rates/Attributes), Stats(Conversions/Progressions/Availablity), Itemization, ... ~ the list goes on ad infinitum.

Then you'd have to make it all transparent and establish a knowledge database containing all the fun math/mechanic stuff to allow for proper discussion, not to mention the Devs need client control afterall.
Unless your proposals are about minor stuff that does not touch on "class defining" mechanics, whether they are defining them by virtue of mythics initial, wonky design or by community perception, there simply is no point bothering - you'd just rile up people without any chance at pacifying them by the means of reason (=> numbers, breakdowns - evidence).
There still is too much missing all over place to allow for a proper and fact-driven discussions; the grouping/community situation before all others makes it impossible to tackle it just now in the manner hinted at (several times) in this thread.
You cannot balance a game that was from the moment of its very inception build around groupplay, if there are barely any groups around.


E: Spelling, format and stuff.
Last edited by Darosh on Sun May 28, 2017 1:20 am, edited 12 times in total.

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dansari
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Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#109 » Sun May 28, 2017 12:58 am

r/threadkillers
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Glorian
Posts: 5007

Re: [WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

Post#110 » Sun May 28, 2017 1:21 am

Darosh wrote:One simple to solution to about 95% unjustified complaints and ridicoulus proposals:

Disable rr/xp gain for people that snowflake around in the lakes.
Grant 16,67% rr/xp gain per member of a group and have it scale with population, just like AAO.
Warbands with atleast one full group have access to full rr/xp for all groups.
Spoiler:
Enable normal rr/xp gain for people with rr60+, those will most likely unterstand the basics of the game and won't go around complaining about things that can be dealt with via proper CC/assist/guardswaps, group composition and the most basic of communication; those will not complain about their 1v1/1vX/pug encounters against class xyz.

Most complaints and most of the frustration will be vented in, and filtered by voice coms, /p and /wb chat - or will just increase the amount of spam in /ad, /3, /tx chats, but who cares about that either way, its a mess already.

Not being able to yield the perfect-fotm-trololol 6man is no excuse* for making no effort whatsoever to find a group and instead going around getting **** on 24/7 just to vent your frustrations on the forums in form of proposals that completly disregard the nature of the game and the tools at your disposal.

You aren't meant to effortlessly win**, moreso every inch of this game resolves around negating your own classes weakness by the means of composition - by synergy between the members of a group; you are not a swiss knife.
Play in a duo, trio and otherwise - work your way towards a 6man, as more often you group as more people you get to know, and chances are some will be interested in a fix 6man.
As time goes by you'll get to know each other and work out specs and such ~ you'll see your group as a whole improve.

Things you consider absolutely broken out of your current perspective will become laughable - and they will become even more laughable if they are tampered with based on a pug perspective. Moreso, you'd be surprised how incredible "broken" certain classes can become if one does build a group appropriately - given that barely anyone complains about certain compositions but rather wastes time complaining about sole classes, its fair to say no one involved (and emotionally invested) in these circlejerks has actually played the game, checked the toolsets, did some basic theorycrafting/testing or invested remotely enough time otherwise to have a say as it comes to balance. Subjective perception derived from piss poor play doesn't beat math, dedication or coordiantion.

There are games around that offer 1v1/snowflake experience, GW2 comes to mind as just one example.

*If you happen to play during a time in which no one is online: deal with it; thats out of anyones reach and no amount of tampering with the classes will help you. If you get roflstomped by WLs/Maras, or just about any class, over and over try to pester the 2-3 derps online to join up or log off and play a game with a better population during your timeslots.

**Killing snowflakes in the lakes or pugs in scenarios has nothing in common, or is in any way related to "winning" - it is to be considered the nature of things. So don't even bother with "but a WL/Mara/Sorc/whatever killed be within 2gcds! Its broken!11!!!", futhermore: get used to dying, its an integral part of the game.

TLDR:

Before you even bother about overhauling classes, think about what other systems in place would have to be completely overhauled to not mess with the integrity of the game:
Buffs/Debuffs (Stacking), Morales (Rates/Attributes), Stats(Conversions/Progressions/Availablity), Itemization, ... ~ the list goes on ad infinitum.

Then you'd have to make it all transparent and establish a knowledge database containing all the fun math/mechanic stuff to allow for proper discussion, not to mention the Devs need client control afterall.
Unless your proposals are about minor stuff that does not touch on "class defining" mechanics, whether they are defining them by virtue of mythics initial, wonky design or by community perception, there simply is no point bothering - you'd just rile up people without any chance at pacifying them by the means of reason (=> numbers, breakdowns - evidence).
There still is too much missing all over place to allow for a proper and fact-driven discussions; the grouping/community situation before all others makes it impossible to tackle it just now in the manner hinted at (several times) in this thread.
You cannot balance a game that was from the moment of its very inception build around groupplay, if there are barely any groups around.
E: Spelling, format and stuff.
What exactly has this to do with the WL and Mara Discussion?

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