POLL - RVR - What would make you play more?

[Dajciekrwi]

I vote other with some ideas below:

So if you evaluate the experience for return players and new players:

- Return players come back because:

1 - Rush of challenging fights where deep class skill and team interdependence/teamwork is really needed, same rush people get from playing in quality a football/rugby/hockey/basketball (6 man) sports team, you need defenders who know how to defend, attacker's who know how to attack, and a leader who knows how to coordinate it.

Spoiler:

(lot of kings own members still around in organised regular guild wb guilds because they get kills, not so many lvling/pug guild players still around, because they don't get kills,the rush is not loosing or winning, the rush is getting kills from challenging situations)

2 - Off pre-made wb time SC's pop well and as long you have at least 2 healers and tanks, are challenging and fun

Spoiler:

(destro have better amount of tanks/healers but they also have more pre made wb guilds, therefore need created for tanks/healers to fill desired wb compositions, watch TUP videos for 3 months and how composition has changed/improved as people level or log classes more needed to make ideal composition, either existing or new members)

3 - Character progression, gaining levels, renown levels for extra abilities over others, access to gear which enables you to effectively try off spec, RVR spec, SC spec, cosmetic gear to look cool (now boe, cosmetic some of the highest priced on AH)

4 - Character depth, alts, so much more to learn and explore with each class and character

Spoiler:

It would take around 2400 hours to level all 24 classes to renown rank 40, that's playing 40 hours a week solid for just over a year, assuming you stop at renown rank 40 with each character, you can't "beat" the game easily, and that's before you explore builds/setups. Learning 864 abilities, 576 tactics, 288 morale abilities, then how the synergies within a class can work, then how they can combine with other classes, there is so much to explore.

5 - Game world depth, it's a cool game world, and has and keeps evolving so well, it's also huge with so many things to do and explore.

6 - Players come for the game world, gear, shinies, but stay for the team PvP rush experience getting kills from challenging fights.


- New players stay because:


1 - They have a fun challenging PvP experience, RVR or SC, they get that rush return players come back for of working as a team that relies on each other helping each other to win, eg tank guards DPS, allowing DPS to live longer and do more damage pushing enemy back, allowing healer to stay back and safer and keep both of them alive.

Spoiler:

- You don't install a PvP game to not do PvP, the website front page does a reasonable job of setting expectations.
- Also this PvP teamwork rush is unique to ROR, when you play other games, and come back it feels a little clunky but nice clunky.
- FPS you got fast gun, big gun, long range gun, not a lot of depth or team strategy here but very fast and fluid.
RoR you have 3 archetypes, and they totally own any fight when they support each other with their archtype unique team abilities, guard/heal/higher damage, 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 DPS can kill a pug wb, see Teefz/Simtex, DPS can't kill for very long unless a healer keeps them alive, and if a tank guards them makes it twice as easy to heal, and DPS can kill even quicker if buffed and their targets guard has been punted away by ally tank and targets healer has been stifled by ally healer, and ally healer can stay safe at back, if your DPS is able to push the enemy back because they have not died, each one in the triangle needs each other to shine and reach optimal.
- And even this optimal is different, scenario 6 man 1 tank needs to be off spec, RVR all tanks need to be def spec for example.
- Another good clunky feeling is in RoR you have to join a group/wb to benefit from guard/buffs/aoe heals, I think this is good, because as a result firstly you choose to join a team, secondly it creates a leader, this is important because teams work better with clear direction, even pug with clear direction can do really well, but soon as that leader logs and no-one else wants to be leader, it falls apart and people go elsewhere, the game structure tools help create the organised team environment, rather than just have solofest, which people simply log off/X realm to avoid.

2 - They find a way to repeat this experience, guild/friend, so some guilds often level alts via pre made scenario's and recruit while doing so, this can pick up new players, train them, and importantly give them repeat access to that rush feeling of getting kills in challenging fights.

Spoiler:

- Another example Ocara is in T3 RVR at the moment, and already the shift in population to destro can be seen, because he creates an organised experience where you have a better chance than with a random inexperienced pug of getting kills from challenging situations, repeat access.
-As previously stated by others, new players will take weeks to get to level 40, your not addicted yet at this point, gotta fight in pre made warband or 3/6 man to get addicted.

3 - They get enough support to understand how to play the game and advance, not everyone picks things up very quickly or played live.

Spoiler:

-How did you learn about talismans, then how to make them, and how did you learn how to lock a zone, or how AH works, where to spend renown points? Try as a new player would where you would find this information.
- The support to get the game installed and running is amazing, the in game support could be better, and really needs to come from the community, advice channel is good, also it would seem most new players join order first and it would seem the most active/vocal in game tagged GM's are 1 order/3 des.

4 - They like how the game feels, some people simply don't, very odd!


I see 2 main pvp experiences in this game, RVR (large-scale) and Scenario's (small-scale) both offer the opportunity to get the rush pvp experience from getting kills in a challenging fight.
A - RVR (large-scale)
B - Scenario's (small-scale)

Some things that would make me/vets/new players play more and are hopefully not a lot of work to achieve are:


A - RVR (large-scale) suggestions


1 - T4 BO timers, no BO timer to capture a BO needs to be over 5 mins, perhaps scaling the secured timers down 10% to help increase the flow of fighting and less waiting, not always fighting over every BO but maintaining 1/2 contested BO's to create fights.

Spoiler:

- Reikland - quarry to manor is the longest i found at 3 mins 30 secs travel time from fight spot (BO) to fight spot (BO). So 10 secs to realise BO is burning, 3 mins 30 secs travel + 60 secs fighting (if you don't win fight after 60 secs you loose, seems fair) + 10 secs to cap = 4 mins 50 secs.
- CW shrine to bramble is 60 secs faster travel time so if its not difficult this BO capture timer could be reduced even further to balance fighting opportunities.
- ROR does a good job of flagging where wb leaders can find fights, BO flags, keep flags and even markers on map where fights are happening.

2 - T4 keeps - allow respawning in keep while inner door is under attack, but stop once inner door is down

Spoiler:

- currently guild/wb's will jump from walls, sally forth and create more fights kills when the outer is under attack, but not when inner is under attack and semi afk until door is down, as no-one wants to miss the funnel fight.
- if they can respawn while inner is under attack i would expect to see guild/wb's jumping from the walls with burst aoe damage and clever use of morales with teamwork to create more challenging fights and kills.
- Stop respawning once inner door is destroyed otherwise you would not take keeps and it would be very very messy.

3 - Place arrows on the maps where you can enter/exit pvp area

Spoiler:

- New players when the wc is camped by gankers/overwhelming numbers log off or x-realm as they often don't realise you can enter pvp areas and try find fairer fights by other ways than via the wc.

B - Scenario's (small-scale) suggestions, this is not an easy one but the only way i can think of improving vet and new players scenario experience

1 - If it is at all possible, create a mechanic where you sign up a role in a tick box/something (1/3 healer/tank/dps) when you queue for sc.

Spoiler:

- Firstly this makes people realise you need all 3 archtypes to have a better chance of having challenging fights and getting kills.
- Secondly use this to match teams so every scenario has at least 1 tank and 1 healer on both sides.
- And make this obvious so people know about it and play to it and use it to their advantage to for example level their tank quickly through t2-3 sc's.
- Put on the queue tick box UI page, "you need at least 1 of each archtype to create a scenario" lot of other games do this even with lower populations.
- Having at least 1 of each of these archtypes in every scenario will massively increase enjoyment and the ability to put up a fight in scenario's, especially at lower levels.
- Otherwise rotating scenarios is great, keeps it fresh, changes to EC/CW rewards is helpful, some classes are shining in scenario/small-scale which is great for people who mostly play scenario's, they have a feeling of being able to be better than others in scenario's due to having access and knowledge of superior small-scale abilities, AM/Shaman in small-scale > other healers.

C - Some other ideas that are not easy changes, but i feel worth mentioning:


1 - Reward good warband leaders/6 man leaders

Spoiler:

- Good regular warband leaders are the best thing for server population and pvp experience
- This can only work if automated as a system process, i don't know what is and isn''t flagged and logged in database, or what can be added/changed, but logic perhaps could be:

- IF character = flag wb leader AND time flag started - current time = <1 hour AND warband ID <number> (*) member count <12 AND warband ID <number> kill count = <20 THEN ACTION send mail to character "tradeable loot bag with 20 conq medals" and message of why good wb leader (conq could be dom for 6 man leaders)

(*) giving warbands and identity so that team stats can be tracked

- This is rewarding good wb leaders, not bad ones, because they get kills and keep members around, and it encourages people to try being wb leader and get good at it. No organised wb leaders = poor pvp experience.

- The reward is tradeable so they can hand out if they don't need and encourage people to follow them.

2 - Encourage/reward guild membership, i've mentioned this before viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20040&p=220283#p220283

Spoiler:

- Guilds help train new players, use voice coordiantion and have better organised teams which therefore get more kills out of challenging fights, and have a better rush pvp experience.
- Perhaps this can be done via giving sub 40 characters/new players bonus xp when they are in a guild, and the guild 1 gold for every level these characters gain?

3 - Classes - Update defunct abilities to be more useful in either large-scale or small-scale, again not a small one, but hope the Dev's can get excited about working on this game with these sort of possibilities available, rather than feel bashed because people complain on forums because humans don't like change until they forget about it 2 weeks later.

Spoiler:

- ROR is restricted to 6 man groups (even if its in a wb) you can only guard/buff/aoe heal your group of 6, there are 12 classes each side, if we had group size at 12, you could balance all 12 classes to be equally needed in large scale with each class having a unique essential team ability.
- As its only 6, what you can do is make 2/3 of each archtype, so melee dps, ranged dps, healer, tank, optimal in large scale, and 1/3 optimal in scenario, when i say optimal, i mean have an ability/tactic/morale that is essential in that environment, so aoe cleanse in large-scale, big ST damage in small-scale with own built in armor debuff/heal debuff.
- I would like to see each class have a large-scale spec and a small scale spec, i think this gives you options to test your character, but still maintain a specialist class for environments.
- Also i would enjoy seeing less classes the same, we don't all want to play heavy armor healers using shield/axe and magic, that's a solo game, we want to play huge damage BW/Sorc who dies so quickly, but with a very tanky tank class and big ranged healer can change a battlefield as a team.

Again thank you for the great game and your personal time to make a lot of people laugh and have fun!

Sorry , i cant agreed with that what y write here?
Old players will dont back to RoR because they OLD they have wife/kids/dogs/business and they simply can wait till everyone comes online to make 6/12 peoples party and cant stay to long- cos Call of Wife is not possible to ignor. Maybe some long tradition guild members can gather 4-5 for 2-3h in week but its max imao.
If y wanna focus on cooperation - it all end like poor heroic Ocara who all night cry " need a healers to wb pls whisper me"
if y will reward premade or wb, you soon make great border beetwen new players and veterans, at noone new will come to game where he is meat for old wolves.

This game is to much focused on cooperation of a masses without the masses.

[Grock]

As an aside: I still hold the belief that the majority of players just want to be able to have fun as soon as they jump on. Currently it doesn't feel like that happens every time, but that's not necessarily tied uniquely to how BiS gear is obtained.

People might not realize or might not want to accept it but essentially WAR is much closer to regular multiplayer games like shooters and MOBAs than to classic MMORPGs a la WoW that are centered around pve, grind and gear aquisition.
Even in WoW aquiring good PvP gear was very easy when i played in WoD, and now they just completely removed it - all players have same stats in PvP regardless of their gear level - that is for a reason.
When people come to PvP they want fair fight, they want to test their skill, and gear difference just undermines that. Gear should be very minor incentive in PvP games, primary goal for a player should be the gameplay itself.

[BrownStar]

For those who have have singled out obtaining conquerer for pugs as a factor, I have the following feelings:
I had the absolute best gaming experience ever on live. I had the ability to join comms back then and that added coordination made all the difference. I completely understand the way the game should be played but I currently have custody of my wife's 4 neices and Nephews, oh and my wife just had 5 of her 7 neck vertebrae fused so any impediment to my hearing via headphones is just not an option at this time. I am therefore a pug guy for the foreseeable future.
I am perfectly fine with spending months in the lakes with 3 different toons with never more than a Blue bag. So someone with full conquerer has 5% better stats, not a deal breaker for me at all. Even after 8 months, I am still giddy about being in the lakes again so none of these issues really affect my desire to log on. I'm just along for the ride and am hopeful I will be reading these types of forum posts years into the future.

[th3gatekeeper]

As an aside: I still hold the belief that the majority of players just want to be able to have fun as soon as they jump on. Currently it doesn't feel like that happens every time, but that's not necessarily tied uniquely to how BiS gear is obtained.

People might not realize or might not want to accept it but essentially WAR is much closer to regular multiplayer games like shooters and MOBAs than to classic MMORPGs a la WoW that are centered around pve, grind and gear aquisition.
Even in WoW aquiring good PvP gear was very easy when i played in WoD, and now they just completely removed it - all players have same stats in PvP regardless of their gear level - that is for a reason.
When people come to PvP they want fair fight, they want to test their skill, and gear difference just undermines that. Gear should be very minor incentive in PvP games, primary goal for a player should be the gameplay itself.

So it's almost like the worse of two worlds then. Atleast in CS or a MOBA I can get on, que, and am playing in just a few minutes. In RoR I get on and que and it might be 20min for 1 game. In a moba or shooter, you can carry your team even if they are bad. That can't happen as much here due to arch type pigeon holing.

In wow not everyone has the same stats. It scales off your item level so you can have X% more stats than someone. And again, it's fast ques in more of an SC environment. The Devs have stated they think SCs are a minigame and that's one problem I see.

I do agree with your last part. Gear should be a minor incentive, the game should be fun. This is not true of the RvR campaign and the wonky RNG loot system and the fact RvR loot is gated behind it, imo ruins RvR for me.

Part of the problem is we don't have leaderboards. That's what many non gear like games have to get you to stay. Like overwatch.

I think gear can and should be a "fun" factor. Not the end goal, but we need a "goal" a "carrot". This is where most games have a leaderboard of sorts with unique rewards.

[Grock]

I wouldn't say its worse of both worlds, in fact its quite close to opposite. Gear difference is big but not as big as it was in old times of WoW (at least from what i've seen) and we have pretty damn strong debolster here on RoR

Gear progression adds depth to the game, so does possibility to mix different gear for different results.

I like MOBA/Shooters but i also love long-term progression and especially character development and fashion/transmog. WAR/RoR achieves that at various degree of succes. We just have to work towards improving it.
Gear should be more about different interesting build variants - stat increase should't exist or be minimal. Even if its harder to balance i'd prefer deep metagame with broken/OP builds, than perfectly balanced but shallow & boring (like Overwatch, not even perfect balance here)

[Bozzax]

During EU primetime there are enough players but you still hardly find people for a group. ^^

Guess I'm an average player and doomed to pugging since CA died.

Spoiler:

Do you even have any 50+ toon in end gear or is it all talk, anni/ruin and T3 debolster action?

[th3gatekeeper]

I wouldn't say its worse of both worlds, in fact its quite close to opposite. Gear difference is big but not as big as it was in old times of WoW (at least from what i've seen) and we have pretty damn strong debolster here on RoR

Gear progression adds depth to the game, so does possibility to mix different gear for different results.

I like MOBA/Shooters but i also love long-term progression and especially character development and fashion/transmog. WAR/RoR achieves that at various degree of succes. We just have to work towards improving it.
Gear should be more about different interesting build variants - stat increase should't exist or be minimal. Even if its harder to balance i'd prefer deep metagame with broken/OP builds, than perfectly balanced but shallow & boring (like Overwatch, not even perfect balance here)

I agree with your last part and this is where I would like to see ROR and where I think it COULD be. I've written atleast twice on it in this thread so I would again, but we need non linear gear progression. Releasing new and.more sets, not with more armor or more stat allocation but the same armor values, same stat # but just different variants. We need stats to value more. I would LOVE for people to break outside their archetype if they spec for it. Stats should all matter much much more. I know stats were nerfed from LIVE but I would advocate for a 50-100% increase in value across the board. Including Wounds. That way players can spec how they want, play how they want. Expirament how they want. And different gear choices allow for this. Also transmutes are HUGE. I'd be fine with the current RVR loot system if it were all cosmetics.

[Sulorie]

During EU primetime there are enough players but you still hardly find people for a group. ^^

Guess I'm an average player and doomed to pugging since CA died.

Spoiler:

Do you even have any 50+ toon in end gear or is it all talk, anni/ruin and T3 debolster action?

Not quite sure what you want to say here but I personally don't join in on the Conq grind, because it is not worth my time.

[dansari]

I think we're having a really healthy discussion and I'd hate to see it devolve into questioning whether someone is high enough rr or has enough BiS gear to have an opinion on the game they play.

[simtex]

Now i'm a hardcore player, well i used to be. I have 6 characters in full conq/BiS items. And i dont play for the grind, i play for the good fights you find occasionally that consumes you so much i just loose track of time and place. They used to happen quite often, before conq was released.

Now you have giant deathballs moving around in RvR fighting for their imaginary realm, tryharding contribution. And all they want is their **** gear. And im no better, i used to do exactly the same **** just beacuse i have to.

Imo, the conq gear design is amazing. Love the stats, looks and feel of it. But the accuisition of it is just pure cancer.

Players should be able to reach high RR/BiS gear in a reasonable timeframe. I bet their is people playing since conq release and still didnt complete their set, now GMs like to talk about how you are not entitled to BiS just because you logon, i beg to differ. In this game it should be equal for everyone. Gear gap atm is HUGE, anyone trying to claim otherwise is simply idiot and really dont understand min/max and its importance in PvP.

So, how to fix it:

Remake whole RvR system, how - i dont care. But current version is the biggest pile of horseshit i have ever seen.

Aint got any answers for you how to fix ****, this is just my opinion. Feel free to ban me if you're offended.

Peace