Recent Topics

Ads

Revolution

Chat about everything else - ask questions, share stories, or just hang out.
User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: Revolution

Post#91 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:19 pm

Grock wrote:IMO problems with TTK comes from lack of reliable self-defence and self-sustain on most classes, feels like 90% of all healing is concentrated within hands of healing classes, which means your life and survival often depends solely on skill and experience of healers/tanks.

My opinion is that TTK scales too much with number and competence of healing classes, making it frustratingly long in competitive environment and frustratingly short in PUG/solo environment (and if you are solo roaming dps you can die in one KD 8-) ).

If the game was less reliant on constant AoE spam and constant healing/guarding to overcome it and instead was more focused on CD-based damage spikes (both AoE and ST) counter-weighted by "defensive cooldowns" and some self-sustain for everyone it - would be much easier to balance out TTK and player experience all around the table, without such drastic differences between average PUGs and coordinated skilled teams.
Imagine something like recent morale bombing meta, but with reliable defensive morales to counter it.

Furthermore there are pulls, punts, KDs, permanent snare and so on, but at the same time almost no mobility/escape options or CC protection which means even a little positioning mistake can mean certain death if your healers/tanks don't react quickly. If there were "defensive CDs" on every class they would provide guaranteed life-saving time buffer for teammates to react, mitigating effect of "too much CC in the game"

So in the end i believe WAR/RoR need big chances to its class design as a whole. Otherwise there will always be problems with something :P
I agree 100% with you my friend. This is why many classes were given detaunt though. At the "core" of what you are getting at though is both Guard and Healing. I dont have a good solution for healing, but I can say that Guard is a very big part of what you are describing above. I have advocated MANY times for a guard rework that would make it both more fun for tanks, and change the meta, but was met with opposition from the "former live" players. In short, I was advocating for something LIKE:

Guard: Raise your defenses (increasing your parry/dodge/disrupt by 20%) ready to intercept 50% of all damage taken by any party member within 30 feet for 5 seconds. 10 second Cooldown.

Something LIKE this. So what it does is make this a more active ability, that must be actively used at a precise TIME, but is now AOE, but ALSO has selfish ability to it (increasing your defenses), and also has a downtime to it, to provide a skill level of "cycling guard" between 2 tanks. Maybe 5 second uptime isnt enough and it could be more like 6-8 seconds uptime with maybe a 15 sec CD or something. You could even extend the range up to 50 feet as another thing to change.

Point being: you would see ALOT more tanks using this (even the LOL DPS ones) and now it puts the "responsibility" of "getting guard" in the hands of not JUST the tank, but any party member. You want guard? follow your tank. where as right now if you want guard, /tell him and beg him to not only put it on you, but ALSO have him follow you around like a puppy (having him stay 30 feet from you).

This would completely change how the game is played, IMO being a QOL increase AND a skill increase (IMO) for all players. Rather than the clunky guard mechanic we have now (that frankly bugs out CONSTANTLY and multiple people attest to this) and frankly it takes 1-2 seconds to swap guard to an ally in which they could be dead in that time... This way its 1 button, used at a critical TIME, that impacts all allies within X feet, that also has selfish benefits for the tank to use as a defensive mechanic. Its a win all around. But this changes the game from "how it was on LIVE bro" so its met with opposition.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

Ads
User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: Revolution

Post#92 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:21 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:Another thing that could be tried is increasing the time to get to m2 and m3 but reduce the timers to M4. So instead of M2 being at 740 it's at 1200. M3 which normaly at 1300 at 2000 and m4 at 2600 instead of 3600

So it would be.
M1 360, M2 1200, M3 2000, M4 2600
While this isnt a bad idea at all, it still doesnt solve the issue of morale damage, you will just save up slightly longer and can still morale dump on people. The issue is the damage.

Turn all morale damage into a DOT over 3-5 seconds and it seems problem is solved more or less. Gives time to actually "counter play" a morale dump.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

User avatar
Grock
Posts: 918

Re: Revolution

Post#93 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:17 pm

Wounds or damage whats the difference? If you increase wounds it would just require a little more people or preparation for morale bomb. Same if you reduce damage - just get more people to kill.

If you switch instant damage morales to say "over 3 second" then it could become better, but it also could simply make them obsolere.
IMO we just need more damage-absorbing morales, personal as M1 and group-wide as M2
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
Image

User avatar
footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Revolution

Post#94 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:24 pm

I don't understand this hatred to morale damage. It is LITERALLY THEE endgame content. Your suppose to step up to the challenge it provides. Granted we don't have all the tools working correctly such as Correct morale gain rates, Banner's with their benefits (offensive/defensive), increased morale gain rate from banners, and a working alter fate. Alter fate along with some other abilities/tactics is LITERALLY morale bomb recovery. We currently lack some of the defensive morale cycle's also.

Morale damage is FUNDAMENTAL to the overall balance of the game.
When RoR discovered that they had the incorrect morale gain rates it should have immediately been restored to AoR rates.

Since this game isn't working correctly you can't make use of all the tools available to play in a meta that includes morale bombs.
There has been SOO MANY changes to this game (RoR) without it even being complete yet and we want to further change stuff prior to even getting things slightly settled? In my opinion no class balance or anything should have been changed until we roughly had a fully working game. That is to include the AoR gear sets. You have to know what your working with first. After that then balance tweaks, if its even needed. I'd first look at rollbacks, then look at inventing stuff. There is a LOT of very good rollbacks to choose from.

I personally don't think this game failed because of the core game mechanics. I think it failed from several out of game factor's and a RvR system that sucked. Not the keep system or the core game mechanics.

There is a video that I have to dig up from a mythic dev stating that fights are suppose to last 30 to 90 sec's.
How long do you guys think fights should last? I think 30 to 90 sec's is a pretty long time.

I just played a 6v6 fight last night where there was only a single death the ENTIRE 15 minutes. So... low TTK? We should have started making use of morale bombs to finish the fight but by the time we realized that the SC was over.

I think the issue is that phalanx doesn't have any competition that can match their organization/coordination.

My main argument on racial groups goes as follows: Racial groups at one time got faster morale gain rates then everyone else. Which mean's all the morale tricks would be able to use WAY sooner then everyone else. Which is to include defensive morale cycle's, Utility morale's, AND... the Morale Bombs. If you take away the morale bombs your killing my main argument.

User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: Revolution

Post#95 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:29 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:I don't understand this hatred to morale damage. It is LITERALLY THEE endgame content. Your suppose to step up to the challenge it provides. Granted we don't have all the tools working correctly such as Correct morale gain rates, Banner's with their benefits (offensive/defensive), increased morale gain rate from banners, and a working alter fate. Alter fate along with some other abilities/tactics is LITERALLY morale bomb recovery. We currently lack some of the defensive morale cycle's also.

Morale damage is FUNDAMENTAL to the overall balance of the game.
When RoR discovered that they had the incorrect morale gain rates it should have immediately been restored to AoR rates.
Oh man, alot to unpack here. First, Morale damage has no counter. This is one problem. Its basically "piercing" damage that bypasses all mannor of defenses. So stacking wounds becomes the ONLY option and even then, when paired with things like RD, CW you literally have no counter play to morale dumping.

Also, morale gain rates was INTENTIONALLY changed from live. They did this on purpose, not accident. If morales worked more like "stronger encounters" then I could probably get behind this, as your toughness/armor/etc would also come into play, but right now its wounds stack or GTFO and in ADDITION to RD/CW (which imo needs to go) it creates zero counter play... This is a problem IMO.
footpatrol2 wrote: Since this game isn't working correctly you can't make use of all the tools available to play in a meta that includes morale bombs.
There has been SOO MANY changes to this game (RoR) without it even being complete yet and we want to further change stuff prior to even getting things slightly settled? In my opinion no class balance or anything should have been changed until we roughly had a fully working game. That is to include the AoR gear sets. You have to know what your working with first. After that then balance tweaks, if its even needed. I'd first look at rollbacks, then look at inventing stuff. There is a LOT of very good rollbacks to choose from.
There have been intentional changes, and they have already said they are not going down the power creep AOR had... So more or less, what we have now IS the "balance" that is going to be around. So we DO know what we are working with, and we can NOW do balance tweaks. Ontop of this.... ROR is NOT AoR. They have said this many many many times over. They are not re-making AOR, they are making a NEW game BASED on AOR, that is called ROR. Very different. They will have different "goals" and different gearing etc.

footpatrol2 wrote: I personally don't think this game failed because of the core game mechanics. I think it failed from several out of game factor's and a RvR system that sucked. Not the keep system or the core game mechanics.
I disagree actually. I think what people want out of games has completely changed and evolved in the last decade + of gaming. So the type of games and the "stuff" we used to do in games, many things are completely Unappealing to players today. For instance, WOW made famous the 6 hour raids. Well, there is a reason games dont do this anymore. Players dont want this. We talk talk all day long about how "vanilla wow" was so special, but frankly if it came out TODAY it would fail... It was wildly successful back then because there was much less competition AND the gaming population it USED to appeal to much more.

Today, some of the AOR and ROR mechanics (like guard) are IMO very antiquated and ONE of the reasons people have quit this game. I can guarantee this because I have talked to many players who specifically have told me they quit because "this game sucks solo" and at the core of the complaint is they play MDPS classes and never got guard. Just one example but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to look at VERY popular games today and dissect them to realize that people largely dont like these types of mechanics.
footpatrol2 wrote: There is a video that I have to dig up from a mythic dev stating that fights are suppose to last 30 to 90 sec's.
How long do you guys think fights should last? I think 30 to 90 sec's is a pretty long time.
What the Mythic Devs wanted, and thought, doesnt mean its "right". Many newer games have come to realize players want shorter bursts of fights with less "downtime".

Lets take your 30-90 sec fights. How much "downtime" is between the fights? How much "setting up". I wont even assume, but you look at MANY different types of games, and its been shown players want short bursts of interaction with also short "downtimes". This means faster paced combat, faster deaths, faster movement to get BACK in the action, etc. etc. Not "setting up fights for several minutes and having them last 30-90 seconds". Which also this doesnt make sense as things like a Keep Siege used to last MUCH longer than 90 seconds.

Also if you look at TTK, most of the time if you ARE gonna kill someone/something the TTK is like 2-3 seconds. You either nuke them, or you dont kill them.... So even by this metric, AOR and ROR failed.
footpatrol2 wrote: I just played a 6v6 fight last night where there was only a single death the ENTIRE 15 minutes. So... low TTK? We should have started making use of morale bombs to finish the fight but by the time we realized that the SC was over.
Nobody is talking 6v6. Yes, in some solid 6v6s fights can go FOREVER without deaths... Nobody is talking 6v6, they are talking warband vs warband... RVR... The "core" of this game isnt 6v6 fights, its warband vs warband.
footpatrol2 wrote: My main argument on racial groups goes as follows: Racial groups at one time got faster morale gain rates then everyone else. Which mean's all the morale tricks would be able to use WAY sooner then everyone else. Which is to include defensive morale cycle's, Utility morale's, AND... the Morale Bombs. If you take away the morale bombs your killing my main argument.
Forget racial groups. This may have been a vision at ONE point in game development, but this isnt the direction ROR is heading so your barking up the wrong tree. As much as YOU think this is a good idea, many dont. I dont. I think its frankly silly to race lock classes to be honest. Another "outdated" system. People want to play a class they like, and LOOK the way they like in todays game space, and it lets them. I dont like dwarves appearance, but I love the Ironbreaker... But this game locks me into it. I get why, the lore, the RP, etc. but its an outdated "thing".

If we take away morale bombs, we have to kill people the good ol fashioned way... And you actually can COUNTER play it. Morale bombs dealing "piercing damage" is stupid and should have never been a thing IMO.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

User avatar
footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Revolution

Post#96 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:36 pm

There is counter-play to morale damage but you NEED the correct morale gain rates and keep mechanic's.

ORvR is not purely about ap AoE and morale AoE damage. You need also a healthy amount of ST damage also. Why? To strip morale from key specific morale damage components or to interrupt utility/defensive morale cycle.

@thegatekeeper
You are super wrong about vanilla wow atm. Retro gaming is in, in a Huge way. A lot of gamer's are picking up the freeshards and playing on them. I don't play newer games because they suck compared to the older games. I think the direction that newer games have taken is garbage which is why I play on a server like this. I am sure a lot of player's feel the same way.
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dabbart
Posts: 2251

Re: Revolution

Post#97 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:45 pm

There is no counter to morale damage, especially with Healer M4 rezzes not working. You can counter the Morale buildup potentially, but not the Damage...

Also, I **** hate morale bombs. Specifically, because I find the style incredibly boring and Zerg based. It can be incredibly effective. And yea, I ran with INQUISITORS and Red Guard on Live... I've been in my share of bomb groups...
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

User avatar
footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Revolution

Post#98 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:56 pm

Morale bombs are not zerg based. They can be if you want them to be. I've used morale bombs at the 6 man level/12 man level/warband level in a highly organized way which was not zerg what-so-ever. I find morale bombs an extremely fun part of the game.

It is one way for player's that enjoy organized/coordinated play to beat larger number's then themselves.
It is one way to dampen the effect of a gear divide.
It is one way to dampen the effect of a renown rank divide.
It promotes organization and coordination.
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ads
User avatar
Juppstein
Posts: 34

Re: Revolution

Post#99 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Where exactly is the fun when all you do is wait to have a bar fill up, then you rush at the enemy and release death rays of deadly death upon a command from your great leader and the other side crumbles to ashes and dust. In my opinion it is not fun nor is there any kind of skill or proficiency involved. Actually, it is a pretty boring mechanic that destroys the fun for the other 50% of the playerbase involved whether it is red or blue in colour.
Nuln-Hergig-Drakenwald-RoR
Osimus Battmann - WH T3
Dumathor Dunkelbier - IB T3

User avatar
Bozzax
Posts: 2650

Re: Revolution

Post#100 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:20 pm

Racial warbands - check
What devs intended - check
"Correct" moral gain rates - check
Guard is not fun/op- check
No one dies in 6v6 (myth) -check
Defensive morale cycles (myth)- -check

Thread 100% :)
Last edited by Bozzax on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], KingFresh and 7 guests