[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[Theseus]

[quote="Pacso"

Spoiler:

]

I like the wounds debuff. It would have been something I thought of. Another thing was using the Backlash mechanic. I would make it so, that you do a percentage of the damage you are dealing to your target.

For an example. If you are hit by a backlash at 25 combustion yo get 25% of the damage you dealt with that attack. If you are hit by a backlash at 100 combustion you get a 100% of your own damage. Addidtionally I would scale the probability of a backlash to the combustionrate. So if you are at 20 you have a 5% chance to be hit by a backlash. At 100 it would be between 60 and 75% for example.

The wounds debuff with the avaible gear is ridiculous idea, the other one would kill the class instantly.

It wouldnt kill the class, it would just make it harder to play, thats all. And I thought, that was Penrils goal. Equal Drawbacks to the strength of the mechanic. You still could maintain 100% all times, you just would need a dedicated healer. Or you could manage your resources so you wont be killed. The used numbers were also meant as an example. You also could say 75% of your own damage on 100 combustion. So where exactly is the problem with those propositions. I really would appricieate it if you could go in further details.

Both BW and Sorc can do a 2k-4k burst dmg (with WoP/BB, VoT/SB, HoF/WH proc) in 1,5 sec. The average hp in T4 is 5,5K. So if you hurt yourself 4k, in 1,5sec, and meanwhile the enemy try to dmg your char, you will be dead. Nearly always. You can say, that "then dont use max combustion", but that way, you wont use your class potentieal ever. If the class potential can't be played, than its a bad design.

And no one would bring a class like this in combat, so it will be literally kill the class.[/quote]

To say you never could use 100 combustion is wrong. You just would have to be more aware of your surroundings. And quite honestly, every class that can do 4 or 5 k in 1.5 sec should have an almost impossible drawback in my account. So yeah, you cant use your 100 combustion/dark magic most of the time, but thats not the same thing as never. You just have to make sure, you arent allone and have some tanks and a melee line in front of you. Then you can use it. So that way sorcs and BWs would have to rely more on good group play, which would encourage that. That would be another advantage as I see it. So yeah, the class would be much harder, but not impossible to play.

[freshour]

I'm not entirely sure what all is possible. BUT - if it were possible to instead of backlashing - have a DOT placed on the BW/SORC that will stack - maybe a few hundred per gcd or something and depending on mechanic if they get this dot on them it will hit harder and harder or perhaps stack faster and faster? I mean they are literally exploding on themselves right? combustion doesn't sound happy, but intuitively the race wouldn't have lasted long if they just all blew up.

So why not make it a sort of "Oh crap I can feel this comin on better dump mechanic" - that way you can get kinda get a feel for it rather than just spammin for it and keeping it up? I think the current backlash is okay, but if you were to make it a DoT that isn't cleansable that could stack it'd probably make them have to manage it a bit better while not ruining the class like most people want to do

[dansari]

My suggestion: don't have a punishment or negative effect associated with meltdown. Simply add a damage modifier on either the 3pt tactic in each tree or the 5pt ability in each tree that is associated somewhat with the tree it's in, something that works a bit like grudges/hate. To gain the benefit you have to use meltdown. For example, one tree could have the added effect that works like 100 combustion does currently: gives you crit chance + crit damage. If you use meltdown before 100 it just gives you a smaller benefit, but you have to use it, then you gain the benefit for say 10-15s. Another tree could modify meltdown so that it debuffs an area of players, making anyone who hits them have a crit damage increase or something, scaled to be reasonable and if you use meltdown before 100, it gives less. A third could be debuffing a single target but instead of giving you a crit chance+crit damage increase or debuffing players in an area, it makes all damage on the player 4% increased, like the Overlord set bonus.

I don't think you would even need to increase combustion levels to make it work since most people can build in about 3-4 gcds, but maybe that could be looked at.

You also remove the negative effect of backlash, but sitting at 100 combustion wouldn't actually grant you any passive buffs outright.

My personal opinion is if you tie this in with useful tactics that people already use and make them fit within the trees people spec, then it could work out.

[Theseus]

I'm not entirely sure what all is possible. BUT - if it were possible to instead of backlashing - have a DOT placed on the BW/SORC that will stack - maybe a few hundred per gcd or something and depending on mechanic if they get this dot on them it will hit harder and harder or perhaps stack faster and faster? I mean they are literally exploding on themselves right? combustion doesn't sound happy, but intuitively the race wouldn't have lasted long if they just all blew up.

So why not make it a sort of "Oh crap I can feel this comin on better dump mechanic" - that way you can get kinda get a feel for it rather than just spammin for it and keeping it up? I think the current backlash is okay, but if you were to make it a DoT that isn't cleansable that could stack it'd probably make them have to manage it a bit better while not ruining the class like most people want to do

I think that would be also a great Idea. It would be a bit slower than flat damage, but way more immersive.

I have to disagree on your thought that people want to ruin the class. For me its just, that they have awesome power with almost no drawback. So I think we should create a drawback that is immersive and as great as the benefit. And if you can, as someone else stated, do 4 to 5 k in 1.5 sec, the drawback to this class should be equally intense I think.

Actuall personally I would like to see that to every class, so you have to think. DoK or WP shouldnt be allowed to be only backline healers and so on.

But Back on topic:

As I said, your dot idea with stacking is great, as long as ist is not cleansable. The big question is, how to design the drop mechanic. Will that dropp all the stacs or just stop adding new stacks. Here I would propose to drop some stacks but not all.
I would say it drops 2/3 of the stacks.

So if you have 3 stacks it drops 2 and for 9 it drops 6.

Another thing that would then be nice, even if I dont know if it is technically possible, to say, you cant drop your combustion until you dropped your stacks. They are the winds of magic, rampaging in you after all. So it might be nice to first fight the overload and then the normal capacity.

[Theseus]

My suggestion: don't have a punishment or negative effect associated with meltdown. Simply add a damage modifier on either the 3pt tactic in each tree or the 5pt ability in each tree that is associated somewhat with the tree it's in, something that works a bit like grudges/hate. To gain the benefit you have to use meltdown. For example, one tree could have the added effect that works like 100 combustion does currently: gives you crit chance + crit damage. If you use meltdown before 100 it just gives you a smaller benefit, but you have to use it, then you gain the benefit for say 10-15s. Another tree could modify meltdown so that it debuffs an area of players, making anyone who hits them have a crit damage increase or something, scaled to be reasonable and if you use meltdown before 100, it gives less. A third could be debuffing a single target but instead of giving you a crit chance+crit damage increase or debuffing players in an area, it makes all damage on the player 4% increased, like the Overlord set bonus.

I don't think you would even need to increase combustion levels to make it work since most people can build in about 3-4 gcds, but maybe that could be looked at.

You also remove the negative effect of backlash, but sitting at 100 combustion wouldn't actually grant you any passive buffs outright.

My personal opinion is if you tie this in with useful tactics that people already use and make them fit within the trees people spec, then it could work out.

How would that give this the sorc and BW an equal drawback to their abilities?

For me its mostly a high reward/low risk class, if propperly plaid. thats what I thought was intended to change. But perhaps I got it wrong. A clarification might help here.^^

[Wrench]

Hi all,

Maybe a crazy idea right but since it is being asked:

How about for every time u 'dump' your combustion (and whatever Sorc uses, Dark Magic?) u benefit your group (Only your group and no one else!) with for example a damage reduction which scales with the amount of Combustion/Dark Magic dumped....
(Or any other useful benefit we can think of)

Like I said it sounds crazy but think about it:
At 100 combustion you could get (don't stick me on the numbers as it's all theory crafting at this point) 5% less damage for your group only. This means you are doing dps/aoe bomb as usual but with an added benefit that you could also protect your group from incoming damage for a small duration (I dunno 5 seconds? again just a random number) at the COST of doing less damage until u build Comb/DM up. You could be a DPS machine as usual and a group protector for inc damage secondary.

Benefits in the fields would be a possible smallish counter on dps bombs if you could time your combustion drop to take some of this damage and more group benefit game-play aside from the sole AOE/ST/Bomb game-play.

In my humble opinion it could add more group play benefit and a little love for both BW/SORC and give them more utility aside from the classic role without nerfing any current game play and give the classes more utility in the field. Utilities like the choice between doing damage and hurting yourself in the process or helping your group survive-ability could maybe add more dimension to both classes and could possibly be linked to skill trees.

Anyway, hope it helps and adds more ideas:-)

Kind regards,

Wrench

[dansari]

Spoiler:

My suggestion: don't have a punishment or negative effect associated with meltdown. Simply add a damage modifier on either the 3pt tactic in each tree or the 5pt ability in each tree that is associated somewhat with the tree it's in, something that works a bit like grudges/hate. To gain the benefit you have to use meltdown. For example, one tree could have the added effect that works like 100 combustion does currently: gives you crit chance + crit damage. If you use meltdown before 100 it just gives you a smaller benefit, but you have to use it, then you gain the benefit for say 10-15s. Another tree could modify meltdown so that it debuffs an area of players, making anyone who hits them have a crit damage increase or something, scaled to be reasonable and if you use meltdown before 100, it gives less. A third could be debuffing a single target but instead of giving you a crit chance+crit damage increase or debuffing players in an area, it makes all damage on the player 4% increased, like the Overlord set bonus.

I don't think you would even need to increase combustion levels to make it work since most people can build in about 3-4 gcds, but maybe that could be looked at.

You also remove the negative effect of backlash, but sitting at 100 combustion wouldn't actually grant you any passive buffs outright.

My personal opinion is if you tie this in with useful tactics that people already use and make them fit within the trees people spec, then it could work out.

How would that give this the sorc and BW an equal drawback to their abilities?

For me its mostly a high reward/low risk class, if propperly plaid. thats what I thought was intended to change. But perhaps I got it wrong. A clarification might help here.^^

Penril asked for ways that BW/sorc would have to actually use their combustion, not that it necessarily still had to be a double edged sword.

[ragafury]

Read everything, cause nothing to do here.

Make some abilties that costs mechanics thats worth using.

Best answer on page 1 imo.

I don't think the rest wouldn't work or anything or are bad ideas, but this keeps stuff simple (accessibility for new players) and makes the class deeper (decision making).

[sabat80]

Spoiler:

The issue is that before changing mechanic on both classes you need to balance them. BW has got way more utility than Sorc therefore any changes to mechanics will hurt one class more than other.

Sorc/BW suffers from very low tool tip damage therefore if you take away a crit and crit damage from it it will just not have a burst... Burst, which if you play against party which knows what they do, very rarely is sufficient as it is cleansed, disrupted, lost LOS etc...

To make a full burst and hit for 4k+ on the same time stamp target needs to stay within LOS for 7+ seconds, do not disrupt anything, don't have CW nor be cleansed, don't detaunt... if you dont pay attention to the environment than sorry also all that damage is very predictable as you can see that better WoP was cast on you.

Bigger problem in my opinion are particular skills / tactics especially on BW - Flashfire, Burn Through, Ruin and Destruction (M2? wtf?), to a certain degree Echo of Power if Chop Fasta is up (maybe do that not affected by cooldown changing abilities).

Also when i look into my combat log (enemy ahs got it) usually over 25% of incoming damage is coming to my from backlash.

Based on that I would hold any changes to the mechanics until other things are balanced between BW ans Sorc

For a test I would suggest to change it from 35% chance to be hit to a flat DoT which hits every second for a value based on how much are you charged (at that point people will need to manage mechanics as it will kill you unless you drop it). Also it would be handy it Dhar Wind/Meltdown were instant with no cooldown so you can drop it if you want.

Or redo some skills that use mechanics instead of AP and are worth casting! but also change how you can charge your mechanics faster as you will be discharging it more often as well.

Irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to balance Sorc with BW, make a proposal for it in a new thread. This one is for discussing their mechanic.

[Penril]

@OP, we can throw some suggestions if we're convinced that sorc/bw mechanic is problematic. could you point that what's the real problem ?

1-lack of counterplay ?

No. Not once has this been mentioned, it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

2-lack of punishment ?

-according my enemy combat statistic my %20-30 incoming damage comes from backslash. for st it's not a problem at all but as a aoe sorc/bw it's quite punishing under pressure. just imagine you have to use your aoe abilites every gcd to create pressure and backslash ticking very very often.

That's either BS or you are simply not being focused. I could run a few SCs where no one focuses me and 100% of my damage would come from backlash. And if you can't spam your AoE due to "backlash" then find some other ways to run your bomb warbands.