[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[th3gatekeeper]

I mentioned it several times, but i don't mind doing it again:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.
- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.
- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

Skilled players will consider these changes as a buff, while regular/bad players will consider it a nerf.

OK well if you combine a few suggestions you can get all of this Penril.


Backlash - Modified and now deals 100% of damage to yourself. (how this works on AOE, is it would merely just include you in the damage as a target. So it would hit you, like it would hit anyone else for TT damage +/- modifiers etc.) So a clear cut example with a single target, you fireball an enemy, it backlashes, and would cast a "damage roll" just like all normal damage as if you hit yourself also with that fireball. So this has potential to cause BIG damage on yourself now.

Mechanic modified to 3 tiers:
0-25: zero backlash. No benefits.
26-75: 5% backlash chance. 25% crit bonus, 75% more crit damage.
76+: 15% backlash chance. 35% crit bonus, 100% crit damage (same as max).

Meltdown: Consumes ALL combustion, and provides a damage bonus for X seconds based on the amount of combustion.
0-25: Zero benefit.
26-75: 15% damage bonus for X seconds (6?)
76: 25% damage bonus for X seconds (8?).

Something LIKE this...

This TYPE of thing, seems like the best direction to go. and I believe it meets all your requirements.
- Mechanic has to be played. Cant just sit at 100.
- More lethal at max combustion.
- Gain something when consuming mechanic (damage buff).
- Skilled BWs might see this as a buff, bad BWs might consider this a nerf?

Seems like its moving in the right direction anyways....

[Tesq]

I mentioned it several times, but i don't mind doing it again:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.
- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.
- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

Skilled players will consider these changes as a buff, while regular/bad players will consider it a nerf.

OK well if you combine a few suggestions you can get all of this Penril.


Backlash - Modified and now deals 100% of damage to yourself. (how this works on AOE, is it would merely just include you in the damage as a target. So it would hit you, like it would hit anyone else for TT damage +/- modifiers etc.) So a clear cut example with a single target, you fireball an enemy, it backlashes, and would cast a "damage roll" just like all normal damage as if you hit yourself also with that fireball. So this has potential to cause BIG damage on yourself now.

Mechanic modified to 3 tiers:
0-25: zero backlash. No benefits.
26-75: 5% backlash chance. 25% crit bonus, 75% more crit damage.
76+: 15% backlash chance. 35% crit bonus, 100% crit damage (same as max).

Meltdown: Consumes ALL combustion, and provides a damage bonus for X seconds based on the amount of combustion.
0-25: Zero benefit.
26-75: 15% damage bonus for X seconds (6?)
76: 25% damage bonus for X seconds (8?).

Something LIKE this...

This TYPE of thing, seems like the best direction to go. and I believe it meets all your requirements.
- Mechanic has to be played. Cant just sit at 100.
- More lethal at max combustion.
- Gain something when consuming mechanic (damage buff).
- Skilled BWs might see this as a buff, bad BWs might consider this a nerf?

Seems like its moving in the right direction anyways....

to tell the true this is exatly what i would NOT like to see implemented

-in best case scneraio: this became and auto mode when after x and y, finisher will follow reducing risk at minumin and there is no awarenes involved just automatism...

-in worst case scenario it is not a penality at all when bw is not attacking; which mean a 100 meccanic bw/sorc just need to stop attack or can drop his combustion immiditly regardless so if any melee came in, you just kite as currently and backlash will behavioru the same way by behing overhealed by hots..
This will just buff bw/sorc finisher in the rotation and it will probaly end as hard to balance in aoe mode.

BW/sorc need to reach easy 100 point and need to deal all the time with the drawback of not pay attention "over the time" to had not drop part of the meccanic to not incurr in the penality and not a one single skill which remove all their malus....

per see reach 100 meccanic faster will alredy balance the dmg reduction overall for not be able to stay 100% of the time at max meeccanic....

[Coma]

Going point by point:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.

For this the best way is to give DOUBLE incentive, a drawback as well as a convenience, simply giving them an harsher drawback will turn into a "don't hit 100 or you'r screwed" if you give them something good by dropping their comb/Dm than it will change to "get to 100 than drop"... if you can tune it right it can even turn into a "get to 100 and than evaluate second by second if stay or drop based on circumstances"... this whould probably be the BEST scenario, where the player actualy have to consider his action and not simply do the same thing over and over (while I concur that sitting at 100 all the time make it a poor mechanic the concept of build up, drop to 0 and repeat is not really much more engaging )

- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.

In this regard I seriously thnik that we should drop the concept of "damage as a consequence of high comb/DM" completely... the reason is that self damage is extremely hard (I would rather say impossible) to balance given 2 completely different envorament that are organized WB play and solo/pug play... combustion as it is can be ignored by organized WB but is a pain for Pug/solo... if we make it harsher enough for organized WB to have to actualy take it into account than it will make it impossible for SOLo/Pug to actualy play with it... and while I know that balance here is aimed toward organized WB play there should also be a limit to how much it can affect solo player especialy if an ALTERNATIVE do exist

with this said I would actualy look at different tipe of drawback;

Damage return, as I explained before is impossible, AoE make it so that you can't get even a 50% damage return without getting killed by a single proc, any lower percentage would turn single target damage return into ignorable as much as current Explosion/Backslash. DoT and channeled skil (and BW/Sorc have plenty of both) make it's implementation even more complicated.

Heal debuff, as pointed out it can be harsh but it can also be completely ignored depending on circumstances (if you'r not targeted than there is no problem with getting less heal ^^).

Wound debuff, sound good at first but with current itemization it can easily turn into a too harsh a punishment if made stackable with other enemy's wound debuff, on the other hand it can turn out incosequantial if it doesn't stack (since Wound debuff are quite common and used in organized play).

AP cost increase, this is what I'm more inclined toward, it is easy to tweak, don't cause the player to drop dead but force him into administrate his resources, it can be made harsh (double or even triple the cost of skill at max Comb/DM) to cicunvent group/self AP regen tactics that should at best ALLEVIATE it and not cancel it (otherwise we go back to explosion/backslash being incosequential in organized WB enviorment) while in Solo/Pug it will simply froce you to drop out of 100 Comb/DM after one or 2 spell (while organized WB should be able to keep at it for a LITTLE longer before getting starved).
It also promote the idea of using High Comb/DM only for BURST damage and not for SUSTAINED damage.

Other, I don't seem to remeber other TYPE of drawback showing up in this tread but I might have missed them ^^'

- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

This has been posted several time in the tread and I'll reiterate once again; Convert some of the current skill for each mastery into combustion/DM consuming skill. AND make them appealing! they don't need to be FINISHER like the SL/Choppa but they should give the player a REASON to use them beside the simple concept of dumping their Comb/DM.

For DD Sear/Gloomburst is quite a good candidate, remove dthe CD and turn it's cost into 25/30 Comb/DM (the cost itself will act as a limit to avoid spam just like it does for SE/SP, it is also a skill that have tactics attached to it (just like SE/SP) that can make it more valuable.
Sorc double gloomburst tactic that inflict a garnted backslash can be changed to double damage but triple DM cost turning it into a mass DM damp. Sear lifetap Tactic could be improved (mybe 100% dmg returned as health) adding a double/triple Combust cost to it to have a similar effect (one gives burst damage at cost of High DM the other give self healing at cost of high Comb)

For DoT it's a bit more complicated since most core ability from this mastery are either under a CD that can't be removed or a too different between the 2 classes... for the BW detonate could be an excellent candidate but Sorc don't have anything equivalent (icy spike if changed to a spammable PBAoE DoT that consume DM will turn in just a mirror of SP). My suggestion for this would be to rework SB/VoTmatbe turning them from simple AP drain into AP leech (returning part of the AP to the caster) while consuming Comb/DM at every tick or all at once at cast (this will also add an AP recovery tool that could be usefull for other changes.. see above about AP increase as consequence of high Comb/DM).

AoE already have SE/SP, those 2 could just be twiked a little to make them more appealing but they already have a good spot so pumping them could not me necessary... need test ^^'

finally, as someone also suggested, beside those that should be "basic tools" (as in avaible to every BW/Sorc) changing the final skill of each mastery into a combustion dump could also be interesting expanding the option and making gathering combustion only to release it in specific moment into an engaging type of game play (don't simply turning it into a drop it every time you get to 100 but rather get to 100 --> TRY to manage it for some time --> use that comb/DM to make something really usefull while also alleviating your high drawback)


this is the best I can think of ^^ hope it can be usefull ^^

[Ignes]

Spoiler:

I mentioned it several times, but i don't mind doing it again:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.

Up until now the change for all other classes have all gone to the opposite direction. Like removing the need to switch auras, allowing the casting on moving of the heal and hot heal for healers (but wp/dok) thus rendering more mobiles, like losing only one mechanic points for shaman/acm rather than all.

- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.

Isnt said bonus computed in the actual balance of the class and in the base damage of spells to be on par with other dps? If you lower the bonus (ie an average of 65) thus removing on average 20% crit 60% crit dmg then will you re balance the skills base damage?
If you put combustion cost on skills like mythic did on scorched earth you'll have the same result: enormous drop of the skill use.

- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

Skilled players will consider these changes as a buff, while regular/bad players will consider it a nerf.

That is rather dismissive of the couple of players like me, which are neither skilled nor amiable nor sociable. Aren't we bad players allowed to play the game and voice an opinion? are bw/sorc a class for only the most skilled elite?

Bad players should roll tanks?

These are not suggestions.

[lefze]

Spoiler:

- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

Skilled players will consider these changes as a buff, while regular/bad players will consider it a nerf.

That is rather dismissive of the couple of players like me, which are neither skilled nor amiable nor sociable. Aren't we bad players allowed to play the game and voice an opinion? are bw/sorc a class for only the most skilled elite?

Bad players should roll tanks?

This combined with the fact that no class deserves to be 100% unplayable in solo or sub-6man parties is part of the reason I believe making the kit use combustion/dm as a resource rather than or in addition to a buff is far superior to a solution where you either empty the bar or kill yourself. Of course, if the mechanics in the latter approach require more than watching the bar and then pressing a single skill things might change a bit. Overall I believe making the kit revolve around a balance of spending and gaining would make things way more interesting as long as the mechanics don't flat out punish you for staying at 100 more than existing mechanics (Maybe less even?) but instead encourages the use of both spending and building resource to deal comparable amounts of damage to what we can put out today. Approaching it like this would still let the class retain some playability for really small parties/solo and players that aren't as invested in the game as others, but still require everyone to play the mechanic in their favor to achieve competitive results.

Again, DON'T reply to posts that have been moderated.

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

Going point by point:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.

For this the best way is to give DOUBLE incentive, a drawback as well as a convenience, simply giving them an harsher drawback will turn into a "don't hit 100 or you'r screwed" if you give them something good by dropping their comb/Dm than it will change to "get to 100 than drop"... if you can tune it right it can even turn into a "get to 100 and than evaluate second by second if stay or drop based on circumstances"... this whould probably be the BEST scenario, where the player actualy have to consider his action and not simply do the same thing over and over (while I concur that sitting at 100 all the time make it a poor mechanic the concept of build up, drop to 0 and repeat is not really much more engaging )

- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.

In this regard I seriously thnik that we should drop the concept of "damage as a consequence of high comb/DM" completely... the reason is that self damage is extremely hard (I would rather say impossible) to balance given 2 completely different envorament that are organized WB play and solo/pug play... combustion as it is can be ignored by organized WB but is a pain for Pug/solo... if we make it harsher enough for organized WB to have to actualy take it into account than it will make it impossible for SOLo/Pug to actualy play with it... and while I know that balance here is aimed toward organized WB play there should also be a limit to how much it can affect solo player especialy if an ALTERNATIVE do exist

with this said I would actualy look at different tipe of drawback;

Damage return, as I explained before is impossible, AoE make it so that you can't get even a 50% damage return without getting killed by a single proc, any lower percentage would turn single target damage return into ignorable as much as current Explosion/Backslash. DoT and channeled skil (and BW/Sorc have plenty of both) make it's implementation even more complicated.

Heal debuff, as pointed out it can be harsh but it can also be completely ignored depending on circumstances (if you'r not targeted than there is no problem with getting less heal ^^).

Wound debuff, sound good at first but with current itemization it can easily turn into a too harsh a punishment if made stackable with other enemy's wound debuff, on the other hand it can turn out incosequantial if it doesn't stack (since Wound debuff are quite common and used in organized play).

AP cost increase, this is what I'm more inclined toward, it is easy to tweak, don't cause the player to drop dead but force him into administrate his resources, it can be made harsh (double or even triple the cost of skill at max Comb/DM) to cicunvent group/self AP regen tactics that should at best ALLEVIATE it and not cancel it (otherwise we go back to explosion/backslash being incosequential in organized WB enviorment) while in Solo/Pug it will simply froce you to drop out of 100 Comb/DM after one or 2 spell (while organized WB should be able to keep at it for a LITTLE longer before getting starved).
It also promote the idea of using High Comb/DM only for BURST damage and not for SUSTAINED damage.

Other, I don't seem to remeber other TYPE of drawback showing up in this tread but I might have missed them ^^'

- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

This has been posted several time in the tread and I'll reiterate once again; Convert some of the current skill for each mastery into combustion/DM consuming skill. AND make them appealing! they don't need to be FINISHER like the SL/Choppa but they should give the player a REASON to use them beside the simple concept of dumping their Comb/DM.

For DD Sear/Gloomburst is quite a good candidate, remove dthe CD and turn it's cost into 25/30 Comb/DM (the cost itself will act as a limit to avoid spam just like it does for SE/SP, it is also a skill that have tactics attached to it (just like SE/SP) that can make it more valuable.
Sorc double gloomburst tactic that inflict a garnted backslash can be changed to double damage but triple DM cost turning it into a mass DM damp. Sear lifetap Tactic could be improved (mybe 100% dmg returned as health) adding a double/triple Combust cost to it to have a similar effect (one gives burst damage at cost of High DM the other give self healing at cost of high Comb)

For DoT it's a bit more complicated since most core ability from this mastery are either under a CD that can't be removed or a too different between the 2 classes... for the BW detonate could be an excellent candidate but Sorc don't have anything equivalent (icy spike if changed to a spammable PBAoE DoT that consume DM will turn in just a mirror of SP). My suggestion for this would be to rework SB/VoTmatbe turning them from simple AP drain into AP leech (returning part of the AP to the caster) while consuming Comb/DM at every tick or all at once at cast (this will also add an AP recovery tool that could be usefull for other changes.. see above about AP increase as consequence of high Comb/DM).

AoE already have SE/SP, those 2 could just be twiked a little to make them more appealing but they already have a good spot so pumping them could not me necessary... need test ^^'

finally, as someone also suggested, beside those that should be "basic tools" (as in avaible to every BW/Sorc) changing the final skill of each mastery into a combustion dump could also be interesting expanding the option and making gathering combustion only to release it in specific moment into an engaging type of game play (don't simply turning it into a drop it every time you get to 100 but rather get to 100 --> TRY to manage it for some time --> use that comb/DM to make something really usefull while also alleviating your high drawback)


this is the best I can think of ^^ hope it can be usefull ^^

Alright man, you sold me. So this was a very detailed post, care to summerize what you would say is your actual proposal? I mean this is what Penril is looking for correct? The "end goal" of this thread is to come up with a proposal that can then be officially discussed and voted on.

Your suggestion meets all the criteria that I can see:
- makes it not as punishing in PUG scenarios/warbands
- it can never be ignored.

The ONLY question I would have, would be that Penril's stated objection was that in some ways this be seen as a "buff" to BW in that a skilled BW can execute this well and likes it. The ONLY avenue I can see you making this fit in your proposal is to significant buff Mastery Mechanics that are also spenders, so the spenders are the "if skilled its a buff" part of this, while at the same time, the increased AP cost is going to be somewhat of a "nerf" to the current playstyle of BW - since they cannot maintain 100 mechanic all the time as they wll be AP starved.

Heck, you could toy with a simple scaler at first where your crit chance and crit damage increase and your "AP cost" is increased at the same level of the "bonus crit damage" meaning at 100 mechanic, you have +35% crit +100% crit damage and have +100% AP cost to all abilities (meaning double).

Then like you said, give an ATTRACTIVE mechanic spender in each Mastery tree (maybe at the top of each tree?) so that now it would be part of the "rotation". Build up mechanic, manage AP, at the right time use a spender to alleviate AP costs + possible finisher.

The ONLY downside that I dont see discussed is how BW damage is crap without mechanic build up - and POTENTIALLY this is where this "mechanic spender in Mastery Trees" can come in.

I would like to see your fomalized "proposal" as I think you are onto something.

- increased AP cost based on mechanic.
- Mastery skills as spenders (that are GOOD) and can be used at both high mechanic and low mechanic.
- No more "self damage"

[Coma]

Spoiler:

Going point by point:

- The mechanic has to be played. Not just "spam Ice Spikes to 100 then forget about the mechanic" like it currently is.

For this the best way is to give DOUBLE incentive, a drawback as well as a convenience, simply giving them an harsher drawback will turn into a "don't hit 100 or you'r screwed" if you give them something good by dropping their comb/Dm than it will change to "get to 100 than drop"... if you can tune it right it can even turn into a "get to 100 and than evaluate second by second if stay or drop based on circumstances"... this whould probably be the BEST scenario, where the player actualy have to consider his action and not simply do the same thing over and over (while I concur that sitting at 100 all the time make it a poor mechanic the concept of build up, drop to 0 and repeat is not really much more engaging )

- The drawback for being at 100 mechanic should be harsher. Backlash is NOT harsh enough for the fantastic bonuses they gain.

In this regard I seriously thnik that we should drop the concept of "damage as a consequence of high comb/DM" completely... the reason is that self damage is extremely hard (I would rather say impossible) to balance given 2 completely different envorament that are organized WB play and solo/pug play... combustion as it is can be ignored by organized WB but is a pain for Pug/solo... if we make it harsher enough for organized WB to have to actualy take it into account than it will make it impossible for SOLo/Pug to actualy play with it... and while I know that balance here is aimed toward organized WB play there should also be a limit to how much it can affect solo player especialy if an ALTERNATIVE do exist

with this said I would actualy look at different tipe of drawback;

Damage return, as I explained before is impossible, AoE make it so that you can't get even a 50% damage return without getting killed by a single proc, any lower percentage would turn single target damage return into ignorable as much as current Explosion/Backslash. DoT and channeled skil (and BW/Sorc have plenty of both) make it's implementation even more complicated.

Heal debuff, as pointed out it can be harsh but it can also be completely ignored depending on circumstances (if you'r not targeted than there is no problem with getting less heal ^^).

Wound debuff, sound good at first but with current itemization it can easily turn into a too harsh a punishment if made stackable with other enemy's wound debuff, on the other hand it can turn out incosequantial if it doesn't stack (since Wound debuff are quite common and used in organized play).

AP cost increase, this is what I'm more inclined toward, it is easy to tweak, don't cause the player to drop dead but force him into administrate his resources, it can be made harsh (double or even triple the cost of skill at max Comb/DM) to cicunvent group/self AP regen tactics that should at best ALLEVIATE it and not cancel it (otherwise we go back to explosion/backslash being incosequential in organized WB enviorment) while in Solo/Pug it will simply froce you to drop out of 100 Comb/DM after one or 2 spell (while organized WB should be able to keep at it for a LITTLE longer before getting starved).
It also promote the idea of using High Comb/DM only for BURST damage and not for SUSTAINED damage.

Other, I don't seem to remeber other TYPE of drawback showing up in this tread but I might have missed them ^^'

- In return, they should gain something when consuming their mechanic, in order to keep the class as strong/possibly stronger than it currently is.

This has been posted several time in the tread and I'll reiterate once again; Convert some of the current skill for each mastery into combustion/DM consuming skill. AND make them appealing! they don't need to be FINISHER like the SL/Choppa but they should give the player a REASON to use them beside the simple concept of dumping their Comb/DM.

For DD Sear/Gloomburst is quite a good candidate, remove dthe CD and turn it's cost into 25/30 Comb/DM (the cost itself will act as a limit to avoid spam just like it does for SE/SP, it is also a skill that have tactics attached to it (just like SE/SP) that can make it more valuable.
Sorc double gloomburst tactic that inflict a garnted backslash can be changed to double damage but triple DM cost turning it into a mass DM damp. Sear lifetap Tactic could be improved (mybe 100% dmg returned as health) adding a double/triple Combust cost to it to have a similar effect (one gives burst damage at cost of High DM the other give self healing at cost of high Comb)

For DoT it's a bit more complicated since most core ability from this mastery are either under a CD that can't be removed or a too different between the 2 classes... for the BW detonate could be an excellent candidate but Sorc don't have anything equivalent (icy spike if changed to a spammable PBAoE DoT that consume DM will turn in just a mirror of SP). My suggestion for this would be to rework SB/VoTmatbe turning them from simple AP drain into AP leech (returning part of the AP to the caster) while consuming Comb/DM at every tick or all at once at cast (this will also add an AP recovery tool that could be usefull for other changes.. see above about AP increase as consequence of high Comb/DM).

AoE already have SE/SP, those 2 could just be twiked a little to make them more appealing but they already have a good spot so pumping them could not me necessary... need test ^^'

finally, as someone also suggested, beside those that should be "basic tools" (as in avaible to every BW/Sorc) changing the final skill of each mastery into a combustion dump could also be interesting expanding the option and making gathering combustion only to release it in specific moment into an engaging type of game play (don't simply turning it into a drop it every time you get to 100 but rather get to 100 --> TRY to manage it for some time --> use that comb/DM to make something really usefull while also alleviating your high drawback)


this is the best I can think of ^^ hope it can be usefull ^^

Alright man, you sold me. So this was a very detailed post, care to summerize what you would say is your actual proposal? I mean this is what Penril is looking for correct? The "end goal" of this thread is to come up with a proposal that can then be officially discussed and voted on.

Your suggestion meets all the criteria that I can see:
- makes it not as punishing in PUG scenarios/warbands
- it can never be ignored.

The ONLY question I would have, would be that Penril's stated objection was that in some ways this be seen as a "buff" to BW in that a skilled BW can execute this well and likes it. The ONLY avenue I can see you making this fit in your proposal is to significant buff Mastery Mechanics that are also spenders, so the spenders are the "if skilled its a buff" part of this, while at the same time, the increased AP cost is going to be somewhat of a "nerf" to the current playstyle of BW - since they cannot maintain 100 mechanic all the time as they wll be AP starved.

Heck, you could toy with a simple scaler at first where your crit chance and crit damage increase and your "AP cost" is increased at the same level of the "bonus crit damage" meaning at 100 mechanic, you have +35% crit +100% crit damage and have +100% AP cost to all abilities (meaning double).

Then like you said, give an ATTRACTIVE mechanic spender in each Mastery tree (maybe at the top of each tree?) so that now it would be part of the "rotation". Build up mechanic, manage AP, at the right time use a spender to alleviate AP costs + possible finisher.

The ONLY downside that I dont see discussed is how BW damage is crap without mechanic build up - and POTENTIALLY this is where this "mechanic spender in Mastery Trees" can come in.

I would like to see your fomalized "proposal" as I think you are onto something.

- increased AP cost based on mechanic.
- Mastery skills as spenders (that are GOOD) and can be used at both high mechanic and low mechanic.
- No more "self damage"

Ok I'll try to get it into a "formal" model (I hope to have understood what you mean by formal ^^'):

1) Mechanic change:

a) Combustion Bonus stay as they are; progressive increase in critical chance and critical damage up to 35% critical hit chance increase and 100% critical damage increase.

b) removed Explosion/Backlash.

c) Added progressive increase on ability AP cost scaling the same way as Critical damage (this can be revised based on test, either up, down or giving a different scaler that start slower and reach the 100%+ at max combustion in order to not inder the "build up phase" too much).

2) Core Skill Change:

a) Sear/Gloomburst; removed CD, change cost from 40 AP to 25 or 30 Comb/DM.

b) Slow Boil/Vision of Torment; Changed cost from 35 AP to 20 or 25 Combustion/DM, change AP dreain of 6 per second/30 to 10 per second/50, Ap Drained is returned to the Caster.

3) Mastery Change:

a) BW Draining vitality; Change live tap form 67% to 100%, increase the Combustion cost of sear to 2X (also suggested to switch it's place with draining burn).
a2) Sorc Swell of gloom; Removed automatic backlash, Increase the DM cost of gloomburst to 2X or 3X.

b) (not sure about this but since bothe Sear/Gloomburst and SE/SP have a tactic attached to them that make them more appealing this one should also have one) Fuel to the FIre/Vision of Domination; Added increase AP drain for Slow Boil/Vision of Torment from 10 per second/50 to 15 per second/90 (ap drained is stil fully returned to the caster so it now restore 90 AP over 5 second).

c) FBB; changed cost form 20 AP/second to 25 Comb/second, progressive increase of damage (last hit should hit for 50/100% more to take into account the progressive drop of combustion and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage) increase chance to Crit based on main target HP (this should also give it the fealing of a single target FINISHER so not a skill you use on CD but you use when the time is right).
c2) Shades of death; changed cost from 30 AP to 60 DM, Increased damage by 150% (this take into account the drop in DM and by consequence the reduced chance to crit and critical damage as well the much higer cost).
c2 Alternative) Shades of death; changed cost from 30 AP to 60 DM, it now apply a debuff on the target that increase all damage suffered within the next 5 second by 20/30%, Incresed CD to 15 second (again a Finisher type or actualy a called focus type of skill where you sacrifice your damage to give your party a burst on the significant target).

d) Stop drop and roll; changed cost form 30 AP to 50/60 Comb, increased damage by 50/100% (this take into account the drop in combustion and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage)
d2) Absorm vitality; changed cost form 30 AP to 50/60 DM, Increased damage by 20/30% (As a dot with long duration it suffer less from the sudden drop in DM compared to other skill), added a movement speed reduction by 40% for the duration (this is to compensate the high DM cost and increasing it's usefulness as a survival tool that you would be willing to damp your damage increasing mechanic for).

e) Backdraft; changed cost from 25 AP to 50/60 Combustion, increased damage by 20/30% (As a dot with long duration it suffer less from the sudden drop in combustion compared to other skill), increased push distance (as for absorb vitality the increased efficency as a survival tool will increase the usefulness despite the damage drop that will follow it's use).
e2)Shadow Knives; Changed cost drom 20 Ap/second to 15 DM/second, progressive increase of damage (last hit should hit for 50/100% more to take into account the progressive drop of DM and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage), Added movement speed reduction by 40% on all enemy for 2 second on each hit(skill hit every 2 second so it should reapply the snare effect for it's full duration plus 2 additional second after it's over).



ok here it is... let see if people find it resonable or not ^^' since it is quite extensive it will probably need a lot of twiking ^^'

[Tesq]

not like that my proposal (i know is spread over 2 post sy but is pretty understandable) is the best just the guideline feel pretty fit for the case in question; any malus would be good as long it can be carry over a x ammount o time after the y meccanic was drop and scale from 1 vs x to 24 vs x + is so easy get that max mecc that bw/sorc will be forced to watch about it.

Imo finsher buff is another question; it has more to do with the speed of the meccanic increase; if the speed raise too fast and you always need to worry too much of the meccanic then finisher can be used as a opposite buffer, tough (as all other meccanic there should be some slight automatism aswell so you can even play and not always keep the eye on the meccanic. So well yes about finisher it all depend how the meccanic will work they are the last part in balance the meccanic either if you use only those (as simple finisher) or if there is something before them. Also it must be so simple that bw/sorc can be play from t1, dont forget you still have to level up till rank 40 rr 70 to get the max out of the class, so impose a too focused on mastery finisher meccanic (especially if 13pt) as base could be hard to deal with in lower levels. That said it can be done just not thaaaat hard.

The backlash is good tough when the enemy cannot get close, basically range trade hit where 1 side is basically dominating the other; backlash should be probably a very hard counter to only those situation which even with passive drawback over time you never drop meccanic; like 5-10 min 100 meccanic...you should just explode of backlash at some point.( might worth read what happend to the last big BW hero in end of time arc) But thats the coutner for a very specific and unbalanced situation.

[fourhundred]

Remove backlash and replace with a multiplicatively stacking 25% heal debuff (at 100 combustion). This both makes it detrimental to maintain full combustion under focus fire as well as gives bws the capability operate without requiring a pocket healer on all situations.

Additionally, make meltdown instant cast and give it the ability to crit in addition to the way it currently operates.

These two changes should meet the intent of making it more difficult to maintain combustion as well as provide a benefit for dropping it (solid finisher), and there is the added benefit of a lower risk of completely destroying the class which is likely associated with making a more drastic and complicated mechanic overhaul.

[lefze]

Spoiler:

Going point by point:



For this the best way is to give DOUBLE incentive, a drawback as well as a convenience, simply giving them an harsher drawback will turn into a "don't hit 100 or you'r screwed" if you give them something good by dropping their comb/Dm than it will change to "get to 100 than drop"... if you can tune it right it can even turn into a "get to 100 and than evaluate second by second if stay or drop based on circumstances"... this whould probably be the BEST scenario, where the player actualy have to consider his action and not simply do the same thing over and over (while I concur that sitting at 100 all the time make it a poor mechanic the concept of build up, drop to 0 and repeat is not really much more engaging )



In this regard I seriously thnik that we should drop the concept of "damage as a consequence of high comb/DM" completely... the reason is that self damage is extremely hard (I would rather say impossible) to balance given 2 completely different envorament that are organized WB play and solo/pug play... combustion as it is can be ignored by organized WB but is a pain for Pug/solo... if we make it harsher enough for organized WB to have to actualy take it into account than it will make it impossible for SOLo/Pug to actualy play with it... and while I know that balance here is aimed toward organized WB play there should also be a limit to how much it can affect solo player especialy if an ALTERNATIVE do exist

with this said I would actualy look at different tipe of drawback;

Damage return, as I explained before is impossible, AoE make it so that you can't get even a 50% damage return without getting killed by a single proc, any lower percentage would turn single target damage return into ignorable as much as current Explosion/Backslash. DoT and channeled skil (and BW/Sorc have plenty of both) make it's implementation even more complicated.

Heal debuff, as pointed out it can be harsh but it can also be completely ignored depending on circumstances (if you'r not targeted than there is no problem with getting less heal ^^).

Wound debuff, sound good at first but with current itemization it can easily turn into a too harsh a punishment if made stackable with other enemy's wound debuff, on the other hand it can turn out incosequantial if it doesn't stack (since Wound debuff are quite common and used in organized play).

AP cost increase, this is what I'm more inclined toward, it is easy to tweak, don't cause the player to drop dead but force him into administrate his resources, it can be made harsh (double or even triple the cost of skill at max Comb/DM) to cicunvent group/self AP regen tactics that should at best ALLEVIATE it and not cancel it (otherwise we go back to explosion/backslash being incosequential in organized WB enviorment) while in Solo/Pug it will simply froce you to drop out of 100 Comb/DM after one or 2 spell (while organized WB should be able to keep at it for a LITTLE longer before getting starved).
It also promote the idea of using High Comb/DM only for BURST damage and not for SUSTAINED damage.

Other, I don't seem to remeber other TYPE of drawback showing up in this tread but I might have missed them ^^'



This has been posted several time in the tread and I'll reiterate once again; Convert some of the current skill for each mastery into combustion/DM consuming skill. AND make them appealing! they don't need to be FINISHER like the SL/Choppa but they should give the player a REASON to use them beside the simple concept of dumping their Comb/DM.

For DD Sear/Gloomburst is quite a good candidate, remove dthe CD and turn it's cost into 25/30 Comb/DM (the cost itself will act as a limit to avoid spam just like it does for SE/SP, it is also a skill that have tactics attached to it (just like SE/SP) that can make it more valuable.
Sorc double gloomburst tactic that inflict a garnted backslash can be changed to double damage but triple DM cost turning it into a mass DM damp. Sear lifetap Tactic could be improved (mybe 100% dmg returned as health) adding a double/triple Combust cost to it to have a similar effect (one gives burst damage at cost of High DM the other give self healing at cost of high Comb)

For DoT it's a bit more complicated since most core ability from this mastery are either under a CD that can't be removed or a too different between the 2 classes... for the BW detonate could be an excellent candidate but Sorc don't have anything equivalent (icy spike if changed to a spammable PBAoE DoT that consume DM will turn in just a mirror of SP). My suggestion for this would be to rework SB/VoTmatbe turning them from simple AP drain into AP leech (returning part of the AP to the caster) while consuming Comb/DM at every tick or all at once at cast (this will also add an AP recovery tool that could be usefull for other changes.. see above about AP increase as consequence of high Comb/DM).

AoE already have SE/SP, those 2 could just be twiked a little to make them more appealing but they already have a good spot so pumping them could not me necessary... need test ^^'

finally, as someone also suggested, beside those that should be "basic tools" (as in avaible to every BW/Sorc) changing the final skill of each mastery into a combustion dump could also be interesting expanding the option and making gathering combustion only to release it in specific moment into an engaging type of game play (don't simply turning it into a drop it every time you get to 100 but rather get to 100 --> TRY to manage it for some time --> use that comb/DM to make something really usefull while also alleviating your high drawback)


this is the best I can think of ^^ hope it can be usefull ^^

Alright man, you sold me. So this was a very detailed post, care to summerize what you would say is your actual proposal? I mean this is what Penril is looking for correct? The "end goal" of this thread is to come up with a proposal that can then be officially discussed and voted on.

Your suggestion meets all the criteria that I can see:
- makes it not as punishing in PUG scenarios/warbands
- it can never be ignored.

The ONLY question I would have, would be that Penril's stated objection was that in some ways this be seen as a "buff" to BW in that a skilled BW can execute this well and likes it. The ONLY avenue I can see you making this fit in your proposal is to significant buff Mastery Mechanics that are also spenders, so the spenders are the "if skilled its a buff" part of this, while at the same time, the increased AP cost is going to be somewhat of a "nerf" to the current playstyle of BW - since they cannot maintain 100 mechanic all the time as they wll be AP starved.

Heck, you could toy with a simple scaler at first where your crit chance and crit damage increase and your "AP cost" is increased at the same level of the "bonus crit damage" meaning at 100 mechanic, you have +35% crit +100% crit damage and have +100% AP cost to all abilities (meaning double).

Then like you said, give an ATTRACTIVE mechanic spender in each Mastery tree (maybe at the top of each tree?) so that now it would be part of the "rotation". Build up mechanic, manage AP, at the right time use a spender to alleviate AP costs + possible finisher.

The ONLY downside that I dont see discussed is how BW damage is crap without mechanic build up - and POTENTIALLY this is where this "mechanic spender in Mastery Trees" can come in.

I would like to see your fomalized "proposal" as I think you are onto something.

- increased AP cost based on mechanic.
- Mastery skills as spenders (that are GOOD) and can be used at both high mechanic and low mechanic.
- No more "self damage"

Ok I'll try to get it into a "formal" model (I hope to have understood what you mean by formal ^^'):

1) Mechanic change:

a) Combustion Bonus stay as they are; progressive increase in critical chance and critical damage up to 35% critical hit chance increase and 100% critical damage increase.

b) removed Explosion/Backlash.

c) Added progressive increase on ability AP cost scaling the same way as Critical damage (this can be revised based on test, either up, down or giving a different scaler that start slower and reach the 100%+ at max combustion in order to not inder the "build up phase" too much).

2) Core Skill Change:

a) Sear/Gloomburst; removed CD, change cost from 40 AP to 25 or 30 Comb/DM.

b) Slow Boil/Vision of Torment; Changed cost from 35 AP to 20 or 25 Combustion/DM, change AP dreain of 6 per second/30 to 10 per second/50, Ap Drained is returned to the Caster.

3) Mastery Change:

a) BW Draining vitality; Change live tap form 67% to 100%, increase the Combustion cost of sear to 2X (also suggested to switch it's place with draining burn).
a2) Sorc Swell of gloom; Removed automatic backlash, Increase the DM cost of gloomburst to 2X or 3X.

b) (not sure about this but since bothe Sear/Gloomburst and SE/SP have a tactic attached to them that make them more appealing this one should also have one) Fuel to the FIre/Vision of Domination; Added increase AP drain for Slow Boil/Vision of Torment from 10 per second/50 to 15 per second/90 (ap drained is stil fully returned to the caster so it now restore 90 AP over 5 second).

c) FBB; changed cost form 20 AP/second to 25 Comb/second, progressive increase of damage (last hit should hit for 50/100% more to take into account the progressive drop of combustion and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage) increase chance to Crit based on main target HP (this should also give it the fealing of a single target FINISHER so not a skill you use on CD but you use when the time is right).
c2) Shades of death; changed cost from 30 AP to 60 DM, Increased damage by 150% (this take into account the drop in DM and by consequence the reduced chance to crit and critical damage as well the much higer cost).
c2 Alternative) Shades of death; changed cost from 30 AP to 60 DM, it now apply a debuff on the target that increase all damage suffered within the next 5 second by 20/30%, Incresed CD to 15 second (again a Finisher type or actualy a called focus type of skill where you sacrifice your damage to give your party a burst on the significant target).

d) Stop drop and roll; changed cost form 30 AP to 50/60 Comb, increased damage by 50/100% (this take into account the drop in combustion and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage)
d2) Absorm vitality; changed cost form 30 AP to 50/60 DM, Increased damage by 20/30% (As a dot with long duration it suffer less from the sudden drop in DM compared to other skill), added a movement speed reduction by 40% for the duration (this is to compensate the high DM cost and increasing it's usefulness as a survival tool that you would be willing to damp your damage increasing mechanic for).

e) Backdraft; changed cost from 25 AP to 50/60 Combustion, increased damage by 20/30% (As a dot with long duration it suffer less from the sudden drop in combustion compared to other skill), increased push distance (as for absorb vitality the increased efficency as a survival tool will increase the usefulness despite the damage drop that will follow it's use).
e2)Shadow Knives; Changed cost drom 20 Ap/second to 15 DM/second, progressive increase of damage (last hit should hit for 50/100% more to take into account the progressive drop of DM and by consequence the reduced chane to crit and crit damage), Added movement speed reduction by 40% on all enemy for 2 second on each hit(skill hit every 2 second so it should reapply the snare effect for it's full duration plus 2 additional second after it's over).



ok here it is... let see if people find it resonable or not ^^' since it is quite extensive it will probably need a lot of twiking ^^'

This would ONLY serve to make singletarget bw/sorc completely useless and require a zealot in all cases. Also, you have focused solely on singletaget specs, which (in my optinion) don't really matter in the grand scheme of things where AoE is the dominant form of damage. AoE is the area where a change is most needed, as in ST specs the current mechanic is still noticeable and deals +/- 30% overall incoming damage.