Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

[Tesq]

@cimba, mm well there are phase called transition where rdps with a 10 sec snare cd 15 sec really make a difference; when you want move in a spot get a better position or reach the dps etc etc any situation where you need to move is a squig/sw advantage (unless you pounce over em ; no pun (it's spell like that?) intended).

i mean you have to keep track that sw/squig have the second best st snare in game after tank(and bw/pet opnes) but is from range also; one of the problem for small groups in rvr are SNARES especially those range more spamable than other(reason why RD was so strong ); if the most treatening snares became more avoidable due a ini overstack then it's something to ponder about (not pro/contr again just saying it may happen). ST snare are a big problem when a numerous force stack shitons of eff on you; try to clear all those snare is impossible unless start by default with a high avoidance which prevent entirely these things from happen. So i just ponder how much impact would have a rework like that...

[Raefar]

They werent changed. Change would be going from on hit to on tic. They now have a second avoidance check. Thats the issue. Going through 2 18% avoidance checks before damage is the equivilent of a third of all damage wiped out before you even come up against easier reaction healing/absorbs, easier reaction pots hots more effective compared to vs dd and cleanse that dd doesnt. I wasnt playing when the change came in but I looked back at the patch notes and plenty of players pointed out that its a second check not a change.

It actually worse, dots damaging at this point just seems to be all about luck. I can’t tell you the number of times only one tick actually hits. Let me tell you, doing 200 damage over 15 sec just makes you want to reroll sometimes.

I’m hoping lower disrupt will help over all but honestly I’m not sure it going to do anything for my magus. This will probably make sorc and bw better but may not do much for dot classes at all.

[Lektroluv]

@cimba, mm well there are phase called transition where rdps with a 10 sec snare cd 15 sec really make a difference; when you want move in a spot get a better position or reach the dps etc etc any situation where you need to move is a squig/sw advantage (unless you pounce over em ; no pun (it's spell like that?) intended).

Shadow warrior snare cooldown is 15 seconds with 10 seconds duration, the Squig herder snare version is not 15 seconds cooldown... actually it is 20 seconds cooldown (not even talking about the ranged KD).


PD: Disrupts are fine, the BW and the Sorc's are outdpsing almost all Squig herders in almost all scenarios... maybe Squig herder is not that good as people say or maybe disrupt is not as bad as people say (specialy for BW, with fireballs hiting people during moral 1x 100%disrupt on them, retarded a moral is weaker than a simply lame tactic)

[Telen]

One last suggestion. Disrupt doesnt solve the issue of the biggest offending classes. BW/Sorc are still doing amazingly well in scs and topping kills in orvr. Reason they have short repeatable burst. They might fail a few more rotations due to a disrupt but they can repeat while other classes have much longer set up.

Instead of disrupt. Look at resist. These classes have the ability to turn a low cost 0cd base dot into a large resist debuff. Other casters either cant debuff their own burst or its on a long cd aoe skill. I would consider looking at the resist tactics also. They currently cover only a single resist and no des racial covers corporeal which is the bw debuff and majority of burst. Make the resist tactics cover all three resists. Then along with possible pot use or buffs there is the option to have resist built up against these debuffs while still keeping the hard cap that other casters without such an easy debuff wont come up against aswell as disrupt.

[scatterthewinds]

I still think this entire conversation is insane and we should be asking the question: "How do we nerf rdps to a position where they do not completely dominate mdps in all situations other than a perfectly setup premade with competent tanks and healers?'"

MDSP with guards + healers are hardly dominated by RDPS, see for example typical 6man meleetrain dominating in scenarios with relative ease, even if enemy has massive numbers of RDPS at hand.
If you balance the game around players not having Guard/Challenge/Detaunt/pots/Cleanse/healers, you need something like massive -50% dmg reduction to every class and completely remove Morals so that Chosen/Blorc/BW cannot be meaner than everyone else.

Also, as mentioned above, the Rock-Paper-Scissors becomes somewhat problematic when you take into account medium armour Healers (especially WP with 10% disrupt tactic). They have decent defences against melee attack, and atm superb defences against magical casters because how easy it is to stack both armor talis/+pot and then spec high with DeftDefender + Willpower from gear + tactic + pot, giving easily 40-50 base Disrupt, and then on top of that you start adding more defensive buffs.
So you might end up with a medium armor class that has +3k armor and at best 60-90% Disrupt with maximum buffs.

Assuming GOOD COMPETENT gameplay from your enemies, you might just leave your DPS shaman, DPS zealot, DPS AM, DPS Runie, Magus and Sorc and (maybe even BW unless it runs strict BurnThrough-tactic build) home and reroll/change partysetup so your dps player is on a class that can realistically put pressure on both enemy healers, tanks and DPS classes; if all boxes are not ticked you are just gimping your own setup on purpose by bringing subpar classes to fights against competent enemies.

And last time I checked, the general purpose of balancing in general is to ensure all classes have valid roles in combination of both 6manscale and largescale warband gameplay.

I'll keep this brief because rdps vs other archetypes is offtopic and belongs in another discussion.

I don't disagree with anything you've said but unless you're willing to wait around for long periods of the time finding premades or organized warbands its not always easy. Even for premade ppl I think the majority of this time is spent playing in in-optimal groups or solo queue or solo/2man/3man in lakes.

Rework disrupt, fine, make spells more reliable. But if you do there should be a diminishing returns system for ranged damage put into place. There are several ways of doing it... first is don't let spells of the same type stack. So a new WoP from a second sorc overrides the first one. Second is straight up damage penalty if multiple rdps are hitting the same target. There has to be more of a damage penalty to offset the lack of relative risk an rdps takes in order to do its damage output.

Can we just be honest with ourselves at the simplicity and lack of skill involved in rdps gameplay? They stay in safe positions, they're first to flee if their position is overrun, they have access to resolute defense + flee so its not even easy to catch someone, and they have virtually no gap-closing issues. If an rdps player simply has decent positional sense, and a basic rotation knowledge then you literally cannot be a bad player. Compare that skill level with that of melee. Its not even comparable.

[DakkenBlakk]

Spoiler:

just go shadow warrior. everything kills you easily!!

Read the BDF rules.

[lefze]

Spoiler:

Can we just be honest with ourselves at the simplicity and lack of skill involved in rdps gameplay? They stay in safe positions, they're first to flee if their position is overrun, they have access to resolute defense + flee so its not even easy to catch someone, and they have virtually no gap-closing issues. If an rdps player simply has decent positional sense, and a basic rotation knowledge then you literally cannot be a bad player. Compare that skill level with that of melee. Its not even comparable.

Resolute defense is gone. No idea how you missed that. As for rangeds being as simple as you say, I have to disagree. Being melee and ranged has obvious differences when it comes to guard. I'd actually go as far as to say melee is easier in many cases. And also, constant pressure vs telegraphed bursts, hello. And target selection, which is pretty much the essence of this discussion.

Of course for leeching a zerg ranged is superior, but that shouldn't be, and most likely isn't what this discussion is about. At any rate, most pug sorcs and BWs are absolute trash anyways, so if we take a pug pov all classes need massive buffs.

Stay on topic.

[peterthepan3]

PD: Disrupts are fine, the BW and the Sorc's are outdpsing almost all Squig herders in almost all scenarios..

Can we please stop: a) relying on SC stats as a means of gauging the (purported or not) severity of an issue; b) attributing damage in a scenario to DPS.

[Magusar]

I will not write much, since the main one has already been written in this thread by other peoples,but my opinion, perhaps, I will express.

As already mentioned by Aurandilaz-BW's and Sorc's rotations in essence is a "house of cards",something you will pull out =no longer kills you. This "something" things so much in this game(cleanse,guard,resist auras,los ,taunts.rush to target,cc.defensive cd,etc). Teamplay and counterplay-nice against BW-Sorc.Better than everyone else.Some peoples want to kill casters in party, while themselves in pug/solo.

About solutions of disrupt question in my opinion:
1. "A little -% disrupt here here, a little +% Srikethrougt there" (solves not all problems, but it is better than it is).
2.Wargrimmnir's proporsal with the solution of some questions-crit reduction and stealth detection. Ini cap or low ini rate on actual gear? Some classes have more ini than other classes (WE-WH with ani for example).Thats can be so hard if this is ignored.
3.Back to live system.

[Aurandilaz]

Spoiler:

Can we just be honest with ourselves at the simplicity and lack of skill involved in rdps gameplay? They stay in safe positions, they're first to flee if their position is overrun, they have access to resolute defense + flee so its not even easy to catch someone, and they have virtually no gap-closing issues. If an rdps player simply has decent positional sense, and a basic rotation knowledge then you literally cannot be a bad player. Compare that skill level with that of melee. Its not even comparable.

Nope.
I play all archtypes. None of them are somehow "über complex" or require some kind of entrance exam to be good at.
Play Sorc, tab target or try click target at distance, do your rotation, watch it fail/succeed thanks to RNG, pick next target by clicking or tab targeting.
Play BW, do same stuff.
Play SW, click target or tab target, shoot your arrows and either it dies or doesn't, proceed to next target, keep moving and kiting and pewpewing at same time.
Play Knight, stand there being awesome, check whom to guard, remember your most important task of running all 3 auras and then occasionally staggering or punting or challenging and taunting people, sometimes assist a mdps in snaring down target and all other complex tasks.
Play BG, pick some target for Dark Protector and swap guard around, guard some mdps, punt people around and debuff enemies left and right doing your standard debuff rotations and occasional CC + Guard swaps.
Play WE, watch for whom to gank/burst, check where allies might be around or where enemy dps might gank you, pop from stealth, do standard rotation, target either explodes or doesnt, run away and get to next target choice, or just hit whoever is nearby and hope they die too. Keep doing standard rotations and spamming same 3-5 buttons.
Play Dok/Shaman/AM/WP, do standard positioning and heal cleanse people and detaunt nasty enemy dps, nothing complex there either.

Now I might not be best Sorc/WE/BW/Knight/SM/DoK/Sham/AM/WH/WL/Chosen/BG/SW/WP/Mara player around, but if you think this game has some superb ultra complex classes, then nope, I don't agree with that. All archtypes have their typical roles, typical 3-6 key rotations and debuffs/buffs/CC they can throw around. Once you learn positioning on some class, you have decent positioning on any other class. Once you learn target picking, you good on any class when it comes to target picking.
Melee might provide some challenges, but with good team you have relatively little issues when it comes to closing gaps or countering enemy RDPs.

All classes are simple when have played game long enough to understand all basics. Sure, you might not be in top 10 players of said class, nor might not always top Sc board or zone kills, but you can play "simple" and do good job on any class with relative ease.

If anything, current state of Disrupt has made some rdps classes overly challenging when it comes to sheer difficulty or landing damage on target. On mdps you can just do your typical tricks to close gap and then keep dancing to hit enemy backs and have them snared so reaching and keeping them in melee range remains relatively ease. Mdps burst and dancing to reach enemy backs is RELIABLE damage dealing. Magical casters and rolling the dice to see whether 30% or 50% or even 70% of your spells fail to cause harm is just masochism at times.
Just because other class has 100 feet range and other has 5 feet range doesn't mean the one with longer range has to be garbage at dealing dmg to GROUPED COMPETENT targets.

We are not discussing rDPS vs mDPS.