[Review] Guard at Level 5

[Luuca]

Tier 1 is an Island unto itself. One of the last remnants of the game from which RoR was spawned; albeit altered somewhat.

I am not nostalgic for such things, but tanking is near and dear to my heart.

Why Its a Bad Idea:

• Tanks having Guard at Level 1 will allow other players to ridicule them for not using guard from the very start. /2 salt will flow through the T1 lakes without impedance.
• Guarded healers (with any skill) in T1 will be all but unkillable.
• No way to separate the guard from the guarded as Hard CC and Punts don't materialize until later levels save for SW and SH M1.

Why Its a Good Idea

• may help "new" players understand how to use guard.
• Players who depend upon guard to go glass cannon will have it from the start
• Healers will get semi-God-Mode at Level 1 if a smart tank is around. (Taunt at Level 7 for tanks enables full-God-Mode)

All in all, and in conclusion, leave it alone. No Guard until Level 10. It is not necessary and the imbalance of it too early means more frustration for all.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

Tier 1 is an Island unto itself. One of the last remnants of the game from which RoR was spawned; albeit altered somewhat.

I am not nostalgic for such things, but tanking is near and dear to my heart.

Why Its a Bad Idea:

• Tanks having Guard at Level 1 will allow other players to ridicule them for not using guard from the very start. /2 salt will flow through the T1 lakes without impedance.
• Guarded healers (with any skill) in T1 will be all but unkillable.
• No way to separate the guard from the guarded as Hard CC and Punts don't materialize until later levels save for SW and SH M1.

Why Its a Good Idea

• may help "new" players understand how to use guard.
• Players who depend upon guard to go glass cannon will have it from the start
• Healers will get semi-God-Mode at Level 1 if a smart tank is around. (Taunt at Level 7 for tanks enables full-God-Mode)
  
  ALl in all, and in conclusion, leave it alone. No Guard until Level 10. It is not necessary and the imbalance of it too early means more frustration for all.

Good points. Thanks

[peterthepan3]

Tier 1 is an Island unto itself. One of the last remnants of the game from which RoR was spawned; albeit altered somewhat.

I am not nostalgic for such things, but tanking is near and dear to my heart.

Why Its a Bad Idea:

• Tanks having Guard at Level 1 will allow other players to ridicule them for not using guard from the very start. /2 salt will flow through the T1 lakes without impedance.
• Guarded healers (with any skill) in T1 will be all but unkillable.
• No way to separate the guard from the guarded as Hard CC and Punts don't materialize until later levels save for SW and SH M1.

Why Its a Good Idea

• may help "new" players understand how to use guard.
• Players who depend upon guard to go glass cannon will have it from the start
• Healers will get semi-God-Mode at Level 1 if a smart tank is around. (Taunt at Level 7 for tanks enables full-God-Mode)
  
  ALl in all, and in conclusion, leave it alone. No Guard until Level 10. It is not necessary and the imbalance of it too early means more frustration for all.

Good points. I would counter with the following:

* Potential ridicule from people doesn't really hold much weight when it comes down to balancing gameplay mechanics. Even at level 40, one can potentially be ridiculed for not using Guard 'properly'. Ridicule comes in all shapes and sizes, yet it should not hold any weight when talking about giving the tank archetype its most fundamental skill earlier on.

* Level 10 healers with a guard at the moment can still be killed; surely a level 1 healer with a level 1 guard would be even easier to kill? Having few healing abilities in your arsenal (at level 1, you have...1 ability), coupled with a finite AP pool, will still allow for the inevitable to occur.

* CC is another issue altogether, and I can see what you mean, but isn't this already the case in regards to limited methods of separating guard from guarded with level 10+ players? How does it differ for lower levels?

[Wretch]

Main an ib . Made a chosen to try out destruction . Didn’t feel too useful until I got guard at 10 . Perhaps that was due to the nature of chosen passive auras as I don’t remember feeling that on ib. I think tank play in this game is unique , with things like guard oath friends htl etc and so people who play tank in mmos should probably be introduced to them ASAP

[daniilpb]

Guard ablity is only an one side of “tanking”. Sometimes it is even a passive side of tank gameplay (especially at low lvls, outside of group play). So why not give them all those “tanking” things at level 1 like taunt, challenge and punt which really improve tanks’ gameplay and make it really fun. I believe everything should be given in right time.
Snare is also a very important thing for tanking (which most of tanks underrate sadly) but every tank has different level requirements to get it. Same goes for punt - it is very important too.
So to conclude I don’t think that Guard is something that should be granted from the start, especially when lvl 1 tanks won’t be able to resist all of incoming damage. I am afraid it may result in insta deaths which would scare low lvl tanks.

[adamthelc]

I agree with the solution proposed.
The sooner tanks will have guard, the sooner they will know how useful it is and how to use it effectively, particularly in the case of new players.
Indeed, a new tank player will have a better first game experience if he/she feels useful for the group. And guard is one of the most useful tool any tanks bring to the group.
And that change would also affect new MDPS players, because they would receive a tank protection in T1, which is already not the best place for a MDPS to live (to say the least) with all the ranged players around.

This solution should also apply in the case of stealth imo, but it's not the subject of the proposal.

If someone doesnt already know how useful guard is, I dont think the 9 shortest levels are going to significantly reduce the time it takes them to realize it.

I think this change is for people who already know how useful it is and want it sooner when they make a new character.

Everyone can agree guard is a very good ability for a tank. How many other roles get their best ability at level 1?

Wouldnt bother me if Tanks got guard at level 1, but I think its unnecessary.

We have to remember this as an RPG. Progression to being more powerful is a defining feature. You dont need your best ability at level 1 and level 10 really isnt that long to wait.

[Dabbart]

Guard at lvl 1 will also affect the PvE side of T1. Solo grinding on slow nights will be made simpler. Previous, why would you group with a lvl 6 Tank if you are mobbing? You just wanted a heal source and a DPS source for max efficiency. Now, Tanks of all lvls will help drastically with Mobbing. However, I honestly doubt even giving tanks guard at lvl 1 will get more tanks to use it, stay in range of it, or bother to swap it... But that's just me.

The argument against fast lvling has always been(in part), "give players a chance to learn their class before they get inundated with abilities/gear/etc". Counter to that has always been, how can I learn my class before I have access to the basic abilities required?

The argument in the OP applies to hundreds of abilities covering every single class. Stealth, rezz, grp heal, Mara pull, WH/WE self punt, SH/SW self punt, SH/SW stances/pets, Knight Aura's, Tank AoE snare, super punt, etc etc etc. The classes fundamentally play differently once you unlock these abilities. Only point I would like to see quantified on this(if the change is input) is where the line will be drawn with this logic.

This is not the thread to argue for or against unlocking any other ability or give the different reasoning therein, just something to think of.

Personally, I would be fully supportive of this change, as long as previous stated, the Bolstering stats are taken into account. But even then, you only stay lvl 1-5 for an hour max...

[Collateral]

Since guard is a class defining ability, as stated before, wouldn't it be better if people could use it from lvl 1, and learn about it's function, practice guard swaps etc.? We constantly hear how 'this guy won't switch guard' or 'this guy doesn't even know what guard is'. I think giving guard at lvl 1 is a good step towards people learning the archetype sooner rather than later (since it's an archetype defining ability), and being more effective in playing and mastering the class.

On the other hand, what Lucca said about unkillable healers is probably what will happen. Can you imagine double guard in t1? Perhaps there's a way to kind of 'level' up guard as the character lvls up, giving it more damage reduction. But this is something else to think about I guess.

I would still be for giving guard at lower lvls. Realistically people won't use it as much. How many people are using it at lvl 40 and how many complaints do you hear constantly?

[peterthepan3]

As Dabbart has explained above, it may also be worth considering the benefits of giving guard at a lower level for use in PQs and general PvE.

[Luuca]

* Potential ridicule from people doesn't really hold much weight when it comes down to balancing gameplay mechanics. Even at level 40, one can potentially be ridiculed for not using Guard 'properly'. Ridicule comes in all shapes and sizes, yet it should not hold any weight when talking about giving the tank archetype its most fundamental skill earlier on.

If the idea behind Guard at level 1 is to give "new" players the core class ability, then I consider ridicule to be more of a concern. You see, a level 40 Tank makes a conscious decision as to use guard or not and has leveled to 40 in RoR. The amount of abuse tanks get is second only to DPS Healers. By the time the tank hits 40, he is either good at his class or has chat disabled.

Saying that 'new" players "learning" to use Guard at level 1 is important and in the same opinion saying "new" players who have never played a tank before will be just fine and dandy with the /t /2 and /t1 abuse they will be getting for not floating guard like a god is not reasonable. Truly new players may simply quit. Veteran players will simply use the Guard ability as intended and cause the TTK to go up significantly. So which is it? Is it "new" players trying out tanks in RoR need to learn how to use guard early? or is it veteran players who are used to using guard, or being guarded and understand how important it is, want guard at level 1 so that their organized T1 groups can be more effective? How much ridicule of the "new" tanks comes into play is determined by which scenario you claim to be promoting the Guard from level 1. If it is truly NEW players, I say avoid the early salt and leave guard at level 10. If its truly veterans who just want to have a killer gank group in T1 and want guard, then I say leave guard at level 10. Its six of one, half a dozen of the other. Either way, leave guard at 10.

* Level 10 healers with a guard at the moment can still be killed; surely a level 1 healer with a level 1 guard would be even easier to kill? Having few healing abilities in your arsenal (at level 1, you have...1 ability), coupled with a finite AP pool, will still allow for the inevitable to occur.

While true, guarded players at level 10 do die. Just not as easily as unguarded level 7 players. That's my point. Up to level 7 (pre tank taunt) everyone, including the tanks, are on about an equal level. Guard at level 1 will imbalance this so greatly, it will make guarded healers very very VERY hard to kill. At level 10 Healers get Rez , tanks get guard, and many other abilities are in play. Keep the pre-10 stuff simple like it is now. Placing Guard at level 1 may place a very high importance on finding an organized group in order to be effective.

* CC is another issue altogether, and I can see what you mean, but isn't this already the case in regards to limited methods of separating guard from guarded with level 10+ players? How does it differ for lower levels?

see above